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Posted 12 months, 12 days ago
Alfredo
(149 items)
Here they are, from the Butler Brothers 1900 catalog. Deb Pedersen made the composite picture, which includes my vase (third from left to right). These vases can be classified as "Victorian Bohemian", though they are really a hybrid, "Victorian Art Nouveau Bohemian". They look Victorian but reflect the Art Nouveau aesthetic of organic form as well.
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It is curious that most of the glass shown here and imported to USA has never reached European market. It is seldom seen, if ever, even in areas that belonged to Austria – Hungary Empire, or at least I haven’t seen it – particularly those with applied flowers which would surely had attracted my attention. Mr.A.Villanueva did a tremendous job to identify this glass and we all appreciate his effort very much.
IVAN, THEY ALSO LANDED IN ENGLAND, AS BRITISH! THESE WERE SMALL FRY GLASS, THE KIND THAT WAS DESTROYED BY THE THOUSANDS IN THE SUCCESSIVE WARS. FROM WW1 TO WW2 . AND BESIDES, THEY WERE KITSCH, PERFECTLY ATTUNED TO LOWER MIDDLE CLASS AMERICAN TASTE! I NOW FIND THEM CHARMING. I RESPECT THE LOWER CLASSES.
Thank you, Sir.
I appreciate your knowledge and insight into these. You have been very helpful. As a 20 year collector, I had always been told that these were "Stevens and Williams". Over the years, I became aware that many dealers attribute anything applied to Stevens and Williams. I always liked these types, but thought that the UK attribution may not be accurate.
Thanks to this site and your generous help, I now know for sure.
Thanks again,
Scott
THE BUTLER BROTHERS CATALOGS ARE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE FLOW OF BOHEMIAN/CZECH/TANGO GLASS INTO AMERICA. NOTHING MORE THRILLING THAN TO FIND YOUR GLASS IN THEIR PAGES!
Thanks, Al! Great work on this research! Helping us connect the dots to the Butler Brothers catalog with examples of the actual glass is extremely valuable to all of glass collectors. Deb
Alfredo I have the greatest respect & admiration for you & your work in the art glass community, however I believe you have to use caution when using the Butler Bros. catalogs & their rather primative illustrations to positively attribute an area of importation since Butler Bros. simply uses terms such as "Fancy Imported Glassware" when only a few pieces are specifically identified as Bohemian & while other pieces may be from that region, the BB catalogs should not be used to absolutely, positively attribute a region when in many cases it simply states "Imported". For instance the use of the word imported could also include Italy & the Murano region. Specifically I refer to the photo of the JIP at the far right which in several references has for decades been attributed as Boston & Sandwich using B&S catalogs & I am assuming it is supposed to match the far left illustration under Glazed Upright Rose Bowls which has no specific detail regarding hand tooling with the exception that they resemble one another in basic design. In this case I do not believe a Butler Bros. catalog illustration under imported glass should be used in conjunction with a pictured JIP that that has been positively attributed to Boston & Sandwich unless of course the previous Boston & Sandwich attibution can be disproven by solid documentation which in my opinion cannot be achieved merely by using a Butler Bros. catalog as a resource. I believe while the Butler Bros. catalogs are a good resource for showing areas where glass was imported, I do not believe it offers the solid documentation nor specificity for attribution (unless specified in the catalog ad) especially in the light of the era of late 19th century to early 20th century where it could be a case of who copied who (Europe/America) in design during this period. Again I have the utmost respect for your work in the art glass field & your contributions are legendary & am certainly not in disagreement with your research, I am simply saying at times caution should be used when using a non-specific catalog such as Butler Bros.
We all have different opinions. The thing about Bohemian glass is that it managed to copy other glass from different countries to the point that nowadays it is sold as British or American. BB catalogs are quite specific as to provenance, particularly
Bohemian and Czech.
I would be interested in seeing a scan or reference image of the catalog used for the attribution of the last piece to B&S. As with many early attributions, they are found to be incorrect and have been built on previous mistakes. Shining examples of this would be the continuing attribution of Tango to Powolny, and the attribution of some Kralik pieces as S&W by Manley...... These are mistakes that will likely never die and continue to be perpetuated on the internet.
I would contend that an attribution such as the B&S attribution would have to be questioned, as is the attribution of many of the "Victorian English Baskets" now known to be Welz, and the plethora of "English thorn vases" shown to be Kralik.
To me, the simple assumption and statement that it has been long attributed based on a catalog, needs to be backed by an image of the catalog...... I have certainly found in my research, and I am sure Alfredo would agree, that taking a fresh approach free of previous misconceptions, provides in many cases revelations regarding this regions glass.....
As an example I would also point to the current knowledge relating to Franz Welz, a company with a large output that came to the US, that has been previously and repeatedly categorized as being small and likely out of business shortly after WWI.... a long standing assumption published in both Truitt and the Passau catalogs that we are now sure is very incorrect....
Many of the pieces in the Butler Catalogs can be directly linked to Czech companies, and it is not logical to assume that Butler would have mixed product from different countries in shipments.
With a background in retail business and manufacturing, I would ask a simple question.... What would the advantage be to them? None, as it would increase handling, inventory and packaging costs.... thereby reducing their bottom line.....
I believe the use of the Butler Bother catalogs is a sound foundation for research and ID, even if it flies in the face of a couple of long standing attributions.....
Dandy. It so happens I have scanned all of the relevant pages from each of the catalogs. How do I send it to you? I don't think I have your address. Mine is alfavil@aol.com. The particular catalog is from 1900 and I bought it from the West Virginia Museum of American Art.
Obscurities I guess we will have to agree to disagree on some points. You see this has come up before a number of years ago (its not new) & I most certainly agree that BB catalogs show that glass was imported but in a great many cases BB catalogs can be both specific & non-specific regarding country or import origin & I would have to respectfully disagree with your opinion that it is not logical to assume that Butler would have mixed product from different countries in shipments. Logic has little bearing regarding BB. For instance under "Fancy Imported Glassware" there are pieces specific as to being Bohemian yet within that section there are pieces that lack any specific identification as to country/region of importation therefore its an assumption, nothing more, nothing less, that all those pieces that follow, not specifically identified as Bohemian must be Bohemian when they could be Austrian, German, English, etc. You cannot prove beyond doubt, especially when it come to using the primitive (by modern standards) images in the early BB catalogs, that pieces not specifically identified as Bohemian are of Bohemian manufacture simply because the designs may have also been manufactured in many other countries outside Bohemia. We can agree that early attributions were in many cases faulty & incorrect, however in using primitive images & identifying same as being Bohemian when Bohemia is not specified regarding a piece in BB catalogs to build a case is tantamount to doing exactly what you object to, possible singular attribution errors when there may be more that one attribution source. If there were photographs involved that showed significant detail of pieces that proved beyond doubt country of origin, well that would certainly help clarify everything, but that doesn't appear to be the case in this instance.
In a nutshell this is what I have a problem with. Anointing Bohemia as the primary source for multiple single attributions using a primitive resource when other possibilities exist for multiple attributions outside Bohemia. BB catalog ads are a decent resource that shows types of glass imported from Bohemia, beyond that they prove nothing more especially if Bohemia is not specified within the ad.
One final note & this is a bit unrelated. The word Czech is thrown around a lot these days & from a purely technical standpoint I fail to see the accuracy using Czech as a catch all prior to 1918. I agree that many glass manufacturers were located within the region that became Czechoslovakia, however using the term Czech when addressing glass production prior to 1918 seems to be inaccurate, but I guess its become the norm. I only mention this in regard to BB catalogs before 1918. Bye the way I also have a great deal of respect for you (first name withheld) & as Alfredo said...we all have different opinions & sometimes I just swim upstream. No harm I hope in a discussion.
I agree that we can agree to disagree........ No harm no foul......
The use of the Butler Brothers catalogs has been such that it has provided a starting point for identification of families of product. The identification of a couple of easily recognizable and identifiable pieces from line drawings, found to absolutely represent pieces by Kralik and Welz, provided a starting point to then locate other pieces from the same houses in the same drawings, in some cases almost every piece in a "Fancy Glass" offering have been identified as to house of manufacture.
This process may not apply in other regions of their offerings of glass, but it has been, at least in regions which have been examined, applicable for "Czech" glass.
The word Czech has been generalized to refer to a region in light of the fact that, as an example.... Kralik glass from 1917 would technically be called Bohemian or Austro-Hungarian, and the same vase from mid 1918 would be called Czech.....
I am of the opinion that the generalized use of the term forgoes the necessity to provide a history lesson to those only interested in the glass and the manufacturers, and not really interested in the details of political boundary changes and evolving governments.... IMHO, those interested in the history know it and understand the simplicity of the generalized term.
When I have a chance I will post some of the initial links developed through the Butler Brothers catalogs which sparked the line of research...........
My first name is Craig, and I believe I know who I am "speaking" with.... :-)
I would add, that although the Butler Brother's images are line drawings, we have actually found that they are amazingly accurate representations in the case of pieces that have been matched to the catalogs..... even down to representing decors which can be identified.....
Just for the record, a Glasshound friend sent me the following. It should dispel any doubts about the word Czech.
In the middle of the 7-th century Slavic tribes formed a settlement at Prague and called themselves Cesi (plural), Czech (singular).
A celtic tribe living there in the first millennium before Christ was by the Western world called BOYAR, hence the name Bohemia.
The Czech never liked the name Bohemia.
(out of "Prague, city of Arts")
Craig granted that when I used "purely technical" regarding Czech, it was just that... "purely technical" & I really don't have much of an issue using it prior to 1918...just thought it was interesting that the term was used addressing the glass production in a region prior to it becoming a country, but its not what I'd call an seriously important issue when used to Categorize the region when talking about glass production.
Alfredo. So my question to your friend would be, Are you merely focusing on the Czechs & ignoring the Slovaks who worked in the glass industry? Remember its Czechoslovakia & I do believe both subcultures were compatriots.
I'll use email to discuss this further.
I love the discussion. Very interesting pieces as well, but I love the discussion.
Interesting. Now that you mention it, I have never seen a piece of glass marked Slovakia, nor do the experts differentiate as to Czech and Slovakian glass.