Posted 7 years ago
TriPull23
(1 item)
I found five of these dinner plates left in a house we bought earlier this year (house built in 1917). They have what seems to be a very common pink floral pattern, but they are on a somewhat uncommon ribbon and bows blank. The mark on the bottom is apparently from 1903 based on a chart I found. Searching online has led me to believe I have the only dinner plates in this exact pattern in the entire world. (I'm mostly joking there...mostly. haha)
My searching yielded pretty much nothing. I requested identification from Haviland Collectors International Foundation and Replacements LTD. HCIF told me the pattern was 320-G while Replacements said it was 320-M. I'm not sure which is correct or if either are.
The only pictures I can find of either pattern are on Replacements' site. None of the pictures are of dinner plates. The 320-G dessert bowl and bone dish pictured on Replacements don't have a clear view of the raised border (don't know what it's called...the ribbon and bows in my pictures), but it doesn't appear to be the same as mine.
The only pictures I can find of the 320-M pattern are a cup and saucer set, an oval serving platter, and a tureen with lid, all also on Replacements. The cup and saucer and serving platter seem to have the same ribbon and bows and the same floral print, but the cup and platter have gold accents; my plates do not. And being that the saucer is a different piece, I'm unsure. It has that raised circle in the center for the cup, which of course would be missing from the dinner plates.
The tureen with lid appears to have a different raised pattern, not the ribbon and bows (along with gold accents). This makes me wonder if it is correctly identified...or if any of them are.
Does anybody have ANY advice on how to accurately identify these plates and get an idea of how rare they are. I don't live near any remotely major cities, so finding a good expert for an appraisal is all but impossible. I'm also wary of taking them to an appraiser anyway. I am a very good Googler and feel like if I can come up with nothing, they're not going to do much better. Plus, I'm afraid that, if these are quite rare, I'd be led to believe they are common and/or not worth much if the appraiser had interest in buying them and was trying to rip me off.
This is from four years ago, same pattern:
http://www.justanswer.com/antiques/6si3q-value-limoge-theodore-haviland-france-patent.html
Thank you, but that looks to be a drastically different pattern. The only thing the same is the mark. This is the pattern shown in that link: http://s3.amazonaws.com/f01.justanswer.com/JACUSTOMER5i5v7d9r/2012-06-15_023805_pict0043.jpg
According to the expert on that page, the date of the backstamp is between 1905-1915 rather than 1903.
Did you try this site?
"There are 30,000 to 60,000 patterns of Haviland and Co, Charles Field Haviland, Johann Haviland and Theodore Haviland Limoge china."
http://www.havilandonline.com/#Identification of Patterns
I did see that about the backmark. Haviland Online lists 1903 for that exact mark (there is one identical except without an underline). I'm not sure which is correct.
And yes, I did check that site. Unless I missed some sort of obscure link or something, they have only a few patterns shown in their identification area. It does refer to the Haviland Collectors International Foundation, which is where I got the 320-G identification which I think is incorrect.
It's got to be one or the other, as there are no other choices that I can find.
This is 320M:
http://picclick.ca/Haviland-SCHLEIGER-320M-Cup-Saucer-7185743-201660388409.html#&gid=1&pid=1
320G:
http://www.replacements.com/webquote/h__sch320g.htm
I don't think it's rare - it's just difficult to identify because many of the patterns produced look nearly identical to each other.
I have VERY similar plates, we have a dinner service for twelve. Only about three serving platters and bowls (but its missing the teapot) It does have that particular flower pattern, and I would have to double check that the raised edge is bows and ribbons, it's been a while since I got it out. But ours doesn't have that stamp. It has a different one. I have looked up the history as I have never seen any other plates like it accept on replacements, and now here these.
The stamp is from 1900-1910 'Theodore Havilands New York" "Valeria". I will post pictures when I get some taken of my china, but I just created this account two minutes ago to respond to this post about these plates!!
I have looked up the Havilands extensively. This particular man, was apparently from the States, but traveled all the way to Limoges because he wanted to learn from them. He worked with them for a bit, and then went back to create Havilands New York, to which he actually imported some of the Limoges china to paint and fire himself all the way from there. I read it all in a Havilands History book. I will have to post that also. I believe it could be the same painter, even if it turns out NOT to be the same pattern. If it isn't it is very very close. I inherited all of my pieces from my mother. I have no idea what they would be worth and have thought about an appraiser, but also do not live near any big cities. Anyways,
it makes me wonder if the same painter did that for limoges during his training, and then went and made and patented it in New York before they could. It does make me wonder, but maybe that is reaching. I have no way of knowing.
Hello!
You are correct in your mark. I have many pieces of this pattern. The mark dates it at 1903. The pattern is Haviland (Schleiger 144i).
It is very difficult to find this pattern in replacements.com, or anywhere else for that matter. Replacements has the dinner plates (in excellent condition) valued at $17.99 each.
Enjoy!
Oops...sorry, after looking again, it's not quite 144i. You can always take a picture of the plate and load it to replacements.com and see what comes up. If that doesn't help, try joining a Haviland facebook group. There are many experts on the group that can help you! The mark is definitely 1903 though.