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Antique Parchment w/Handwritten Latin Text~Page from the Bible?

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Posted 3 years ago

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Budek
(228 items)

Hello Again,
Another piece that I've had for years, picked up at a local thrift shop.
Like another page that I found years ago, but much flatter than that other page.
I believe it's Latin and probably a Biblical text?
It measures approximatley 4 1/2" X 6"
Has some light illumination in vermillion,...it's beautiful

Thanks.

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Comments

  1. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    I wonder if it is historical. You might have the story of an seafaring adventure, we need a translator...you might have some info here unknown to modern man!!
  2. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Though I don't speak often of religion, I happen to have two great friends who are priests. If you photocopy the parchment(?), I will send it to Monsignor Leo Lucero in Albuquerque, to see if he and his com-Padres can help in the translation. They will be thrilled if it is biblical.
  3. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    Dear Michelle, Thank You for your comments and offer to help. I will photo-copy the piece today at work and can get it in the mail to you tomorrow.
    Thank You again,
    Tony.
  4. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    I don't know how long it will take, but I will do my best to find a Latin speaker for you!! Address, Michelle Amieux, p.o. box 232355, Leucadia, CA. 92023
  5. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Hi, I just tried to print this to work on it, and was unable to. Were you able to print this? I can't see it well enough to work on it. Looks like there's Latin and Greek in this, and at least one other language. I'm sure that the good Monsignor Lucero would do a much better job of it than I, and I don't want to volunteer for a job he or one of his colleagues could do better than I. However, I was intrigued, and got out my old New Testament Greek grammar and my Cassell's Latin Dictionary, despite the dust. If you have some better photos it might help. However, I don't wish to oblige you to undertake something difficult. Thank you!
  6. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Hi, after I posted my comment, I forwarded this to a friend at Notre Dame who is a Latin and Greek scholar. I just heard back from her. She, too, cannot see the text well enough to read it straight through. I had thought that I detected "kai", which is Greek, along with the Latin. I found the Latin strange. The Classicist finds the Latin strange, too, but couldn't see any Greek. I thought that there might well be an additional language at play here, but perhaps not. Classicist has a deadline, and will work on it in a week from now. My friend is also a member of a Catholic religious community, and I expect that she will have an intelligent opinion on the document. I am excited. I am eager to read more about 'epistles' and 'Damascus'. Do you think that you could get better photos? We really cannot see the text well at all. Thanks very much! miKKo
  7. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    Dear Mikko,
    I'd be happy to send a copy to you as well, but will take and substitute better photos for the posting on this site,....perhaps that will be enough?
    Both you and Michelle are so kind, I can't tell you how I appreciate your offers to help.
    I'll be in touch, and will post the new photos late tomorrow morning.
    Have a great night,
    Tony.
  8. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Dear Tony, Thank you very much for your most gracious and generous response. Yes, if you can get good photos, I'll forward them to my Scholar friend as soon as I see them. Another method you might try would be to bypass the camera and scan the document. Kinko's Copies could do that for you if you have one near. Posting images to Collectors Weekly would be much faster than sending them to me USPS, and me sending them on to Indiana USPS. Meanwhile, until the new photos are posted, this curious soul here will decipher what she can. There's a lot of play in this page! Thank you for posting this 'paleographic' puzzle. It is a great pleasure to assist you. Michelle Ameiux is very gracious, isn't she? Reading her postings made me smile. Best wishes to you both, miKKo
  9. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Mikko, a Classicist with a Latin and Greek scholar as a friend, I an filled with envy. I love old writings, and as you say, it is a wonderful puzzle to work on. I'm not sure how fragile the parchment is, that was why I wondered about using the scanner, but that is certainly the easiest way, as long as the parchment is strong enough. I am a curious by nature and a huge puzzle fan, which is how I landed on this site, I guess!! I am very excited to find out what the writings are about, maybe biblical, or historical, ships voyage... the imagination reels!!
  10. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    On the fourth page, 7th line down, the first word appears very clearly to be Damascus, followed by Golian(?), hmmm. any ideas??
  11. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Pardon, 2nd word "Golina" which sounds familiar to me, perhaps an ancient town named Golina?? Near Damascus??
  12. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    My mind's reeling, I speak French, and Spanish, so I've been trying to recognize bases of words, and I begin to wonder if this is a war log...
    P.S. Did I mention I'm tenacious and bull headed when it comes to figuring out these mysteries!!
  13. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    4th page 3rd line, middle word, "discipl'os"(?), could it be "disciples of"?? P.S. Mikko, your post was not up yet when I brought up Damascus, Golina... you are way ahead of me!!
  14. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, fellow sleuths! Thank you for your most kind words and assistance! This piece had me so excited that I was up to past 4 am last night, and I am very slow this morning. Please pardon me if I sound brusque - physical limitations at play, yet I should like to respond in spirit to your kind fun and keen observations, Michelle, so please permit me to jump in rashly like a 5 year old? Thank you! OK, first: Sorry, I'm not a Classicist - my friend is. I know only a smattering of Latin and New Testament Greek. Background Philosophy, Theology, and Art History. Terrible! French and German. No, no linguist here; I'm just a Medieval Meddler who happened once to be an amateur calligrapher. My Classicist friend is no meddler; she is indeed a fine scholar. She will have something intelligent to say on the verbal content. It really is strange Latin.... I am so glad to have you as a teammate, Michelle - another real linguist! What good fortune. No, apart from crying out for help to the real linguists, what I hope to bring to the problem is a light acquaintance with the forms observed in medieval devotional 'books', and a light knowledge of calligraphic hands and skills....I REALLY CAN'T SEE THE TEXTS, AND CAN'T PRINT THEM. I'M GOING TO GET THEM PRINTED TODAY - SOMEHOW. Since I cannot really see the text, I cannot pretend to have an intelligent opinion on this. I will have to wait on the new photos. However, in the spirit of high fun, I will be rash and propose that there might well be different hands at work here, and there is certainly an odd mix of the font styles! There are some curious marks that make me wonder if one of the calligraphers (if there are really two - could there be a Teacher, too?) had a German background. Finally, observe the flourishes that calligraphers call cadeaux. They are quite amateur. I will be very rash and venture - no, I've already exceeded today's rashness ration. I'll get back with you, friend Sleuth. Thanks much for the Golina suggestions! I will attend to them! By the way, Michelle, did you ever read James Thurber's essay "A Ride With Olympy?" Thurber's French was as bad as mine, and it got him into high mischief. Think you'd really enjoy it. In the meantime, Vale! miKKo
  15. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Morning all, I totally agree that it appears to have been written by more than one person, judging by writing implements, ink color, and writing style. This was why I wondered if it might be a log of some sort of voyage, pilgrimage or adventure. I have a "Red Letter Bible" given to me by my Godfather, which is a mystery to me, but the red might be the leading passages. I wish I had more time to analyze each word carefully, as there certainly many root words understandable in French or Spanish. So this is just one page? My new pet project, every time I get a few minutes, I am going to try to write down ANY root words recognizable that might give us an idea of what is being imparted in this fabulous text!! Mikko, great to explore with a team mate! Like I said, I am a bull-headed lover of solving puzzles, heck mysteries of all kinds...that's why I like this page so much!! Though, it is my Grandparents Collections that are mystifying me right now!! It's like being buried in treasures, and trash!! I need to differentiate the two, and this site has been very helpful.!!
  16. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    Dear Sleuth friends,
    If you were excited about the page I posted, wait! there's another side of writing!!
    I've copied them and will send a copy out to you, Michelle.
    Mikko, I'll photograph the copies and post them in place of the photos on the posting.
    Thanks to you both for all of your kindness, it's made it fun for me, and I need a bit of fun.
    have a great evening, Tony
  17. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Page 3, lines 6, 7 and 8 "lux en celo" is light in the sky, then(what looks like) caves de terra, which I believe to be the caves of the earth, so from the light of the skies to the caves of the earth???? As I said, when I get a few minutes I take a few lines and try to figure out the roots. that is definitely a reference to sky(celo) and earth(terra), lux is light, and cave is the same in the Romance languages, I'm not sure what that means, symbolically, from the highest lights in the sky to the depths of the earth, seems to be what is implied, that is, in my humble, fact free opinion!! Or the light from the sky reaches down to the depths of the earth??? Pieces of the mystery. When I get another moment, I'll check some more lines.
  18. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    Thank You Michelle.
    and Mikko, I'm having trouble with my computer and haven't been able to access photos. I'll give it a try when I'm at work tomorrow
    and to both of you, I'm sorry for the delay.
    take good care,
    Tony.
  19. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    Dear Ones,
    I've substituted new photos for the old,...I hope that you find them clearer than the last group.
    I've included photos of the opposite side of the sheet,...it was a delight to find.
    Apparently 1 page of a book, and the only page that I have.
    Goodnight all,
    Tony.
  20. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi Budek!
    It's Acts 9 Saul's Conversion.

    This will probably take a little time. It's late here on Friday night. But what I have come up with so far is that it is a Vulgate Latin text and a commentary in Latin as well. The Biblical text is in 'Bold' and the commentary in normal text.
    I found that was quite amazing!
    As the others have mentioned Damascus is there.

    I've found Acts 9 lines 1- 3:
    Saulus autem adhuc spirans minarum et cædis in discipulos Domini, accessit ad principem sacerdotum,
    2 et petiit ab eo epistolas in Damascum ad synagogas: ut si quos invenisset hujus viæ viros ac mulieres, vinctos perduceret in Jerusalem.

    Commentary

    I've found Acts 9 lines 3- 5:
    3 Et cum iter faceret, contigit ut appropinquaret Damasco: et subito circumfulsit eum lux de cælo.
    4 Et cadens in terram audivit vocem dicentem sibi: Saule, Saule, quid me persequeris?
    5 Qui dixit: Quis es, domine? Et ille:

    The commentary continues with God's response:

    Ego sum Jesus, quem tu persequeris: durum est tibi contra stimulum calcitrare.
    6 Et tremens ac stupens dixit: Domine, quid me vis facere?

    It then veers away from the Biblical text.

    At this stage it's time for me to retire and leave it to you and the others overnight!
  21. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    vetraio50, you are a treasure. BRAVO!!(hands clapping), now that you have deciphered I recognize more roots but don't know what it means, you are a marvel. I was not allowed to go to church as a child, (Catholic School made my Mommie a Commie, well, leftie)si I know nothing of Biblical text. WOW!! How VERY cool. I wonder who was doing the commentary, in what era??
  22. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, fellow Sleuths! Thank you for your kind words and good cheer! Your hard work and ingenuity is a delight to behold. Michelle, it is edifying to watch how diligently you proceed with your work, and so graciously, too. Bravo. Budek, thank you very much for your graciousness. I will set up an alternate email address today and post it tonight so that you can email me for my address, if you'd like to post images USPS. (I have no problem whatsover sharing my name and address with you, but publishing it online is something I'd rather not do. As I'm sure you understand.) I'm sorry, ladies; duty kept me from responding as I wanted to yesterday. And this morning I see that that dangerous man from Sydney has seized the moment while we slept! Congratulations, Ventraio50, that was one of my methods. Find the received biblical text we know, then try to identify the calligrapher's source.

    (BTW, I still can't print this, or see it well enough to work with.)

    Now, I was awaiting the opinion of the Notre Dame Classics scholar before proceeding. There is a lot at play in this piece, and I wanted to proceed cautiously and methodically, plotting out - where possible - every advance through negation. But the hunters are too fleet for me. Let me just say a few words to indicate what I'm working on. It might aid your own researches, as you have aided mine.

    Now, I appealed to the Classicist in the first place because the Latin is really strange. This is not a simple copy job from Vulgate to paper. Observe the endings - there are numerous discrepancies. The Classicist is a professional; she was immediately struck by the same thing. Also, there are a number of accent marks. What's this? Is this to aid recitation? As you know, Latin isn't like Greek. Greek accents are a nightmare. My Greek teacher told me in youth that if I studied an hour every day for the rest of my life I would begin to become proficient. That wasn't sarcasm. Latin students don't labor under the same burden. My recollection is that, in general, if there's an accent mark in Latin, it's to aid recitation.

    Duty calls me away today again. I shall not have a rested moment in which to pursue this for another day or two. Let me then tell you what I think this page is. I think that these two pages were produced relatively recently. My provisional opinion has been that that they were originally intended to serve, at least in form if not in function, as part of a Liturgy of Hours or other devotional work. Pardon me, I speak sloppily. I think that the calligrapher produced this for devotional use and/or for practice. Sometimes the two both obtain. Examples might help. At one time, my calligraphy was sometimes praiseworthy; some people desired to have it. I have been surprised to discover that some persons have kept my calligraphy for 30 years. Now, a great many documents were begun, only to be discarded near the end because of a mistake. I remember once setting to paper a Josquin des Prez Marian hymn as part of a thank you note to a hostess, a most gracious and devout lady. A great deal of care was taken prepartory to commencing: I procured the finest paper, used a fine pen with a newish nib, used good ink. The work went very well. Alas, in the end, I had to discard it because of a mistake. That 'document' was one of the finest pieces of work I've ever done, and I discarded it. OK, back to the mystery document: note the guidelines in pencil. They have not been erased; this work was discarded. Now, it sometimes happens that I would proceed with a work and then make a mistake towards the end. I would use the rest of the page to practice on. Maybe in a hand or font in which I was less skilled. Then I would discard it. Good parchment is dear. Sometimes, as I practiced on the remaining paper of a botched document, I grew frustrated, and my work was sloppy. Sometimes, calligraphers will copy an old document because it is beautiful or because it inspires them. I undertook this recently with a page from a 'Book of Hours for Engelbert of Nassau', a liturgy of the hours by the Master of Mary of Burgundy. I was so disappointed by the decline in my calligraphic skills that I haven't yet finished it.

    I will explain later about the use of blue and red ink later in devotional works. (Michelle, the red ink in your Grandfather's bible is most probably something altogether different. Often it is employed to indicate what some regard as Jesus' 'authentic' statements. This is not a good explanation, but it's all I have time for now.) I have duties that can't wait.

    Let me just return to the odd language. As I said, this doesn't look to me like 'good Vulgate' Latin. What's it all about? Is there a 'middle-European' language, with which I'm not familiar, at play here. Is there something like 'mid-something Italian' peeking through? What is the source of those 'deviant' endings? I also continue to wonder if the calligrapher has a Greek text before him, too, not just a Latin one.

    Apologies for my tardy responses and all my incoherence this morning. Completely exhausted and very busy. Many thanks to all for sharing your work on this charming puzzle! Vale! miKKo

  23. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    I am curious about the use of different languages. It seems that some passages, I recognize many of the root words, in other passages I recognize nothing. If there are two languages, one must have been a beginning of the Romance languages, as those are the roots I understand. It's just fabulous.
  24. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi Budek! It's early afternoon and I have been able to get back on topic.
    Can I suggest that those interested read about Paleography and its use as a decoding device.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleography
    What we have in this document is something which modern day scribes may find daunting. If this is modern then the scribe has a very advanced knowledge of the art.
    I have only a basic knowledge of "Notae" and "Suspension Marks".
    My knowledge grows as I study these two pages, however.
    The scribe is using abbreviated forms through both the Biblical text and in his/her commentaries.
    There are uses of 'tilde', 'macron', 'yogh and other 'superscript' forms.
    There is an outline here:
    http://www.ualberta.ca/~sreimer/ms-course/course/abbrevtn.htm

    I still contend that it is all in Latin. The commentary has even more use of the superscipts than the scribe is prepared use when writing the 'Divine Words'.

    I intend to keep on being 'dangerous' and welcome others to join in if that's OK with you?
  25. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi Budek! I think I have the order of the pages now.
    You've got four pictures: a, b, c & d.
    b goes first then a.
    (c & d are closeups of a)
    I've been looking in further at the set up of the text and now I'm thinking that it could be a Mass transcribed. In the old days there was a Mass for everyday of the year; there probably still is.
    I'm going to have an early guess on this one:
    I think what you have on page "a" is the end of the Introit, the Collect and on page "b" the beginning of the Epistle (Acts 9, 1- 22) of a Mass for January 25 or the Third Sunday after the Epiphany.
    I'm about half way through transcribing it.
  26. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    You've all been terrific! To know that I was sitting on a magnet for so much attention, , something that would bring so many bright minds into communication,.....well, that's very special to me, Thanks.
    I will send copies to you, Mikko,( Michelle's copies will go out tomorrow, had them wrapped and ready to go today, but didn't get out of work until late,.....ahhh, the life of a Sexton )
    and Vetraio, what a gift you are!
    with your eye attuned to beauty and your heart beautiful,.....Thanks for all that you share.
    Goodnight All,
    Tony.
  27. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    p.s., my email
    uncleuncle@comcast.net
  28. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Greetings, Sleuths! Had to look in before reposing - bad idea - I'll be up half the night thinking about this.

    vetraio50, do, please, go on being dangerous. (Just don't run with that letter opener in your hand.) 'Dangerous' this morning was meant as a compliment. I was paying tribute to your intellectual acumen and to your diligence. By all means, this is a public puzzle - seize the day!

    Much to say, though not now. Much more to reflect on - in the morning!. Thank you.

    Yes, Saul's conversion was the obvious hunch, especially in the context of a devotional work, but I couldn't confirm it because I can't read these pages.(Kinko's will enlarge and print these for me this weekend.) I commend your judgment. AND I'M VERY THANKFUL THAT YOU MADE THE EFFORT TO TYPE OUT IN FULL THE VULGATE TEXTS! If you can manage the time, could you please continue to post full findings? It would help us all keep abreast of the state of the question, and it would also allow newcomers to join us more easily. It would be great if you could post a table of your scribal marks and their respective values and functions, to this end. I know you're new to Paleography, but you learn very quickly indeed, and whatever you post will be of the greatest assistance.

    I see that you are correct that there are a number of marks here consistent with scribal 'shorthand'/elliptical designations. Let's see how many instances of non-correspondence between this mystery document, the Vulgate, and your proposed additional primary texts (the parts of the Mass, for instance) the shorthand will resolve. Yes, I think that they are a feature of this wonderful 'play'. Recall that I called this a 'paleographic puzzle' from the beginning. Also consider rubrics.

    The first evening, I yielded to Classicist's judgment that this text didn't contain Greek. Since then, I have not intended to assert positively that this document does contain Greek text. I meant to hold it up as a possibility. I love possibilities.

    The Mass would be consistent with a liturgical/devotional form.

    For a number of reasons I prefer not to discuss this late at night, I still think that this document is of relatively recent production. What if it were a Paleography exercise? Paleography is statistically infrequent, but we might have stumbled upon someone's academic work. Keep in mind that whatever it was intended to be, it appears that it was discarded.

    I will await further flowering, and then forward your work to Notre Dame, lest Classicist duplicate your work in part. Classicist won't have time to read for several more days, perhaps. She is familiar with all parts of the Mass in Latin and English, BTW. When she weighs in, I might request someone else enter the fray, too.

    Budek, Michelle, vetraio50, thank you so very much for permitting me to share in this puzzle. Michelle, your deeply gracious and enthusiastic response to this posting has sparked a blaze of interest. Thank you. I'm totally exhausted - Yield the Field! Goodnight all! miKKo
  29. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi all! This what I have so far:

    Deus, qui universum mundum beati Pauli Apostoli praedicatione docuisti: da nobis, quaesumus; ut, qui eius hodie Conversionem colimus, per eius ad te exempla gratiamur.

    P(er Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum, Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus, per omnia saecula saeculorum.)

    (In read a Commemoration of St. Peter)

    Tu es pastor ovium princeps apostolorum tibi tradite sunt claves regni celorum.

    Tu es Petrus. Rx Et super hanc petram edificabo ecclesiam meam.
    Oratio


    Deus, qui beato Petro Apostolo tuo, collatis clavibus regni caelestis, ligandi atque solvendi pontificium tradidisti: concede; ut intercessionis eius auxilio, a peccatorum nostrorum nexibus liberemur:


    Saulus autem adhuc spirans minarum et cædis in discipulos Domini, accessit ad principem sacerdotum,
    2 et petiit ab eo epistolas in Damascum ad synagogas: ut si quos invenisset hujus viæ viros ac mulieres, vinctos perduceret in Jerusalem.



    Et cum iter faceret, contigit ut appropinquaret Damasco: et subito circumfulsit eum lux de cælo.
    4 Et cadens in terram audivit vocem dicentem sibi: Saule, Saule, quid me persequeris?
    5 Qui dixit: Quis es, domine? Et ille

    Ego sum Jesus, quem tu persequeris: durum est tibi contra stimulum calcitrare.
    6 Et tremens ac stupens dixit: Domine, quid me vis facere?
  30. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Morning friends, my mind is reeling with the translation, I recognize the roots of so much, but can't put it all together, sensically. Wow, I had "real world" to do, and to come back and find the progress made is incredible. I was always happy that I was not raised religiously, or that I was taught ALL religions were good, just not any one. I have never been exposed to Biblical text, and though I love the scholarly aspects, I have had a brainwashed blockage about "The Church" from childhood instilled there by my Mommie the leftie! RIP. Now that I see the script written out, I can pick out just enough words to REALLY make me wonder what they are talking about. In my fact free opinion, After the disciples Peter and Paul were summoned? The disciples have been summoned by Saul to the sacerdotal" sacred center(?), which appears to be a synagogue in Damascus where the epistles(?) are. Then, the reference to Jerusalem, "vinctos perduceret", "vinctos" like victory, also like vanquish, "perducet". root of produced?, "Saule quid me persqueris, "Saul who is persecuting me?" 5. Qui dixit"-who said it , "Qeis en, domine"- who is dominant. "Et ille"-It's him. "Ego sum Jesus, quem tu persequiris"Thus jesus, who is persecuted(whom is being persecuted??? 6.) I stand here trembling before you, Domine, what should I do?. I don't have enough time to check out the paleontology link this morning, I'm very excited. As I mentioned, as I have NO Biblical knowledge, I am just trying to work on roots of words. There are many that I have hunches, well they are all hunches, but some just don't fully make sense, so'll spare you those fact free opinions.. I'll get 2/3's of a line, or I think I do!!, then can;t figure out what the whole sentence means. What was this passage in Saul? Are they trying to find out who has betrayed Jesus, or is it earlier, when they are asking Peter and Paul about persecution. It seems they are saying Jesus is being persecuted," Tell me , divine one, what shall we do"?? Am I totally wrong? Another thing, the reference to Golina, which is a small town in Poland. Either the empire reached from Damascus to Golina, or maybe Golina is the old form of Golan (Heights). Please excuse my obvious errors, I am sorry not to know more about this passage with Saul, Paul and Peter from the bible. Then with the languages, I might have a better idea of what they are saying. I am excited to send it to Father Leo and his fellow priests, they love this kind of mystery more than anybody, as long as their not the writings of Scrolls of Thomas, found in the 1940's. The Vatican quickly put that in the vault, as it did not espouse a centralized religious structure, more populist!!! Please excuse me if I have wasted your time with drivel. I am just so curious as so many of the words are SO close to Spanish or French. I understand why one sleuth thought there might be a "Middle language", yet Latin is the basis of the Indo-European romance languages. I hope I have not made a fool of myself. I got so excited, I wrote this before I even had my coffee. I will have a cup and reread, if I've wasted too much of you time, I'll delete!!
  31. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, Sleuths! What wonderful work!

    I will have a brief comment for vetraio50 and a brief comment for Michelle. Before that I'd like to let you know that I have multiple physical impediments and that I will lag far behind you. I am capable of brief spurts, but only with long intervals. I am advised to exert myself for no longer than 30 minutes at a time. Last week, I thought I'd be back in the hospital. So, please forgive me if I falter. Just that short post last night took me two hours to type. If you need something from me, please ask. It might take me a long time to reply. But even lying down, I can check in and see what the the running backs have scored.

    Great work, vetraio50 - great work!!! Looking forward to greater and greater advances from the star running back.

    OK, last night I didn't attempt to present all the criteria that grounded my judgment on the age of this document because I was physically incapable of doing a great job, and didn't want to do a sloppy job. I am still not capable of doing a good job. Settle for one I consider decent enough for now? Good, because I think the age of this document and the proficiency of this calligrapher/scribe are important to a proper 'resolution' of this puzzle, and I offer the following observations as reasonably intelligent opinions. There are more points to be made, but I can't right now.

    Although this 'document' is beautiful to us, I humbly submit that a fine calligrapher would not be pleased with it. If this were an ancient or very old document, I think that the scribe would be more proficient. Real scribes/calligraphers were held to very high standards, and the person who penned this document, in my opinion, did not attain them - at least here. An easy example would be the three flourishes in the final page displayed above. These are the 'cadeaux' to which I referred earlier. Two are very bad, and one is at least awkward and 'unmotivated'.

    Michelle, it is a delight to read your hard work. You can read the account of Saul's conversion on the internet if you do not have a Bible at home. It will provide the historical narrative that your observations will color. Or, you could search an online Catholic encyclopedia for 'conversion of St. Paul', or some other such search value. What great gifts God has given you!

    Such is what I can offer now. Meanwhile, I'm cheering you on from my perch on the bleachers, oh bold, swift Running Backs! Yield the Field....miKKo
  32. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Mikko, take care of yourself. We love your mind and we want your body to feel good!! Thank you for the kind words, I shall look up the Saul passage no problem, it will be interesting to know how close my hunches were,or NOT!!!
  33. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi Budek!
    I have some more to add.
    Page b ( the second photograph) begins with Acts 9 ll. 1-2
    The first two words are missing. Probably on the page beforehand.


    (Saulus autem) adhuc spirans minarum et cædis in discipulos Domini, accessit ad principem sacerdotum,
    et petiit ab eo epistolas in Damascum ad synagogas: ut si quos invenisset hujus viæ viros ac mulieres, vinctos perduceret in Jerusalem.

    There is more text and then continues with what I have mentioned above in Citation 31.

    Hope this provides a bit more stimulus for all and sundry.
    Great to hear again from miKKoChristmas11 & michelleamieux.
    I agree to with AR8Jason; there's no Greek here, "it's all Latin to me!" LOL

    I'm stoked that Michelle has found new pleasure in this manuscripts.
    Funny how these things can get inside your mind!

    I'm starting to get a feel about the language used. There are a couple of 'errors' in the scribe's transcription that may reveal where it was written.
    So far I've noted:
    "mondum" and "mundum"
    "hedificabo" not "aedificabo"
    I share this computer at home and don't have access at all hours. I've got to steal some time to get more work done!
  34. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi again Budek!

    Today I've learnt a bit more: Antphons etc.
    I've been able to iclude a bit more to what I had posted earlier this morning.

    It is straight after that. I've included what I added this morning with the rest done today. I mad one change to the earlier text too. One more word not there: (Saulus autem adhuc) .....
    Those red marks are shorthand (I think) for Hymni, Alleluia and Antiphons.
    Each one is a song? That will be tomorrow's investigation.


    (Saulus autem adhuc)spirans minarum et cædis in discipulos Domini, accessit ad principem sacerdotum, et petiit ab eo epistolas in Damascum ad synagogas: ut si quos invenisset hujus viæ viros ac mulieres, vinctos perduceret in Jerusalem.

    Hymni
    Doctor Egregie

    Alleluia
    Tu es vas electionis, sancte paule apostole
    R. Praedicator veritatis et doctor gentium in universo mundo

    Antiphony
    Vade anania et quaere saulum, ecce enim orat; quia vas electionis est mihi ut portet nomen meum coram gentibus et regibus et filiis israhel.

    oratio


    Deus, qui universum mundum beati Pauli Apostoli praedicatione docuisti: da nobis, quaesumus; ut, qui eius hodie Conversionem colimus, per eius ad te exempla gratiamur.

  35. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Holy Tomato, vetraio50, you are great. The patience alone to write it all out!!! I love this site. It is a ton of fun. Thank you all for being so bright, informative and fun, Michelle
  36. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi All!
    I think I have almost all of it now. There is some fine tuning still to do. About two lines that are defeating me for the moment.

    As you can imagine it is a long text. Would you like me to put it on as an item
    As I said it will need some editing down.

    regrads

    Kevin G
  37. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, Sleuths! Many thanks to Michelle and Scandinavian_Pieces for their most kind solicitude!!! A potent balm, it was!

    I have a few comments to make - as briefly as possible.

    Vetraio50, Excellent work! May I ask a favor, please? If you don't post the full text, could you please email it to me? Budek has my personal email address, and if it isn't too much trouble for Budek and/or yourself, I should very much like to have the text - very much. I don't mind the good people of Collectors Weekly having my ID and contact info, I just don't want to post it on the internet, for reasons of security. Budek, please feel free to share my email and ID with any players to this puzzle. Thank you!! A word about the Classicist: Saturday night I emailed her the latest postings to this Show and Tell. She reported back that she still couldn't assume the work, but couldn't resist a peak, and that she was amazed by the progress that had been made. She said that she was impressed! Take a bow, all!

    OK, Vetraio50, when I exhorted you two days ago to attend to the rubrics, I especially had in mind the rubrics for the Divine Office, for it has been my provisional opinion from the first that this is likely a part of a Liturgy of Hours. If you've ever recited Vespers, you will immediately see the similarity to this document. You might have arrived at that independently without ever having recited one of the hours. If you didn't, I'll be more specific. When two or more persons recite the Office together, they do so "chorally", or "in choir". There are notations - often in red, thus the term 'rubric' - that indicate where the alternations are made. There are designations for the first side, second side, first chanter, second chanter, both chanters ensemble, the reader, the officiant. Further, you will find designations for various 'literary' forms (for want of a better term) in each hour of the Lit of Hours - Hymns, Antiphons, Psalms. You have been following that trail, I know. How eagerly I await the full flowering.

    Second comment. Thank you, Budek, for the better images! A great help!

    Third. This sounds really goofy, but I intend this goofy scenario to be an economical way of conveying what I think it will probably take to solve this puzzle in some sort of substantial way. Suppose Budek were the Executor of an estate with some valuable holdings, the disposition of which she is charged. She would want an appraisal of these holdings. Suppose this document is part of that estate. Suppose that she presents it to some knowledgable people she knows for their opinion on how to proceed. They might find this a puzzle. If they lived in Toronto, they might call upon the Pontifical Institute of Medieaval Studies. (I have met two persons with paleological expertise who studied at PIMS.) If Budek lived in New York City, she might start with a call upon the Cloisters Museum/Met. Etc. Or, she might call upon the scholars at Princeton or Yale. Etc. Well, I think that a really substantial assessment of this document will require persons with such disciplines as would be encountered thereabouts. Supposing such a substantial resolution is here actually desired, I think that it would help make the scholars' task much easier if we could identify the texts herein, etc. etc., before handing mystery document off to the specialists. Vetraio50 is running 'faster than a leopard', and making solid advances. Bravo.

    As for definitively assessing the age of this document, I think that the ink used would need to be examined. People do raid old parchment from antique or very old books and forge old documents for sale. Personally, I dimissed that scenario as most unlikely because in my opinion the calligraphy was not accomplished enough to achieve this end, but that argument goes only so far. BTW, as far as the skill of the calligrapher goes, the latter images posted portray his skills in a less unfavorable light.

    Many, many thanks to all!!! Vale! Yield the field....miKKo
  38. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Mikko, Vetraio50 does run faster than a leopard!! On many different terrains, very impressive. Mikko, I agree with all that you said. It is an interesting enough piece that I'm sure the scholarly community would like to look at it , just in case! This is one of the few times that I wish I had more knowledge of Christianity , it's writings and rites. I feel like a blind woman, apart the root words, now I know I must buck up and do a little religious reading, so that I can see if my "rootword alone" very rough translation, is anywhere near right. It has been so great watching the minds work together. This site is indeed unique. The essence of teamwork, by people all over the globe who love to know...whatever the question!!
  39. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    OOPS! I meant to say that the PIMS scholars had expertise in Paleography, not 'paleological' expertise.

    Many thanks to Michelle!!!
  40. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hey Mikko! Budek now has a copy of what I've done. I expect he will send it to you. Thanks for the reminder about the 'rubrics'. I'm sorry but rubrics had meant something different for me: an ex-teacher who set up rubrics for assessment tasks.
    What I have found difficult is finding the name for the Rx symbol. I believe that is refers to a response at this time/in this context. There are the troubling matters of those little "letters in red" Al = Alleluia ? X = Christos ? etc

    Any help on them, names references for the abbreviations, would be helpful.
    There are matins, lauds and there are vespers, no? (early , morn and evensong)

    I also found le(macro) and some digits following before the three divisions of the texts from Acts 9. Any ideas about their meaning? A song?

    Hey I just worked out one!
    a'n = amen!
    Sometimes it's better to come again to a topic, when not so tired, full of ideas.
  41. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Hello, Vetraio50! Thanks much for your message, which I received just a short while ago. First, sorry. From several things that you've said on CW, I inferred that you had a broad knowledge of Catholic devotional forms and images. E.g., You easily trotted out an ID on a devotional image of a saint, and you showed some familiarity with the Mass. I assumed that you were familiar with the Lit of the Hours - and assumed that you would have attended Vespers - at least once - and would have already encountered many of the rubrics. My humble apologies!

    OK, it's very late here. I will get you an online look-up guide to the rubrics. PLEASE TELL ME WHETHER YOUR BROWSER CAN ACCOMODATE ZEON CORPORATION ITEMS. My browser cannot, and crashes. I've found some good sites, but it won't do any good if you can't open them. When I get your answer, I'll post the sites - this way, you won't have to go looking for rubric values piecemeal. Now, some of these definitions can seem a bit arcane. Because of my physical limitations, instead of observing the ritual in church, I recite the hours at home by myself. My edition of the Hours advises in the intro that those unfamiliar with the rubrics find a mentor - the point being that it's not so easy to master all the lingo. So, let me also find you a mentor, too. The people I'll be asking devote their entire day to prayer and study - monks. I'll try to get you a live guide - he will be located in the USA, so you'll have to correspond by email. I'll forward the person's contact info to Budek, so he can forward it to you. Don't want to post the email address and/or phone numbers online. More later. Thanks a lot for your generous and kind response. Vale! miKKo
  42. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, Michelle! Just a note to tell you how much your kindness and enthusiasm is appreciated. God has given you many gifts - intellectual, aesthetic, and personal qualities. I hope that you won't underestimate what you bring to the table. Courtesy, honor, and kindness might not be everything, but they seem to me to be so much the better part of everything - and rare! qualities they are. You will win many friends and many 'battles' in life by these rare and cherished qualities. And as far as being a linguist goes, there's no contest. You beat my achievements flat out. An old boss of mine, a mighty fine consulting engineer, would select you from amongst any number of candidates - largely for the personal qualities I just mentioned, but he would be thrilled to have a good linguist on the team. He moved many mountains in his profession, and you will move many mountains in your life, too. As far as missing out on early religious formation, so many of us do. I was raised by an ascetic widower who sent me to good schools and expected me to get a good religious instruction, which I didn't - 1960's. Father instilled in me a healthy respect for Aristotle, and we also played chess together. Later, I encountered saintly nuns and priests, and then began to learn. Went from Philosophy to Theology. I started late, too. A word in parting - one of my old friends attended the one school in the diocese that still offered an excellent regligious formation. At age 6 she was taught that "God was the supreme bean." Or, so she thought. The Baltimore Catechism teaches that "God is the Supreme Being", but she took "bean" from the lesson.
  43. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Well, if there is a Supreme Bean, I'm sure it's god!! As to the deciphering of the manuscript, I feel like a kid who is a couple inches too short to take the ride!! I'm standing at the gate of the big kid's ride now, and it is fun!! This really makes me appreciate how important basic theological writings are to understanding so much in our culture. Mikko, thank you for your kind words. There are some wonderful people here at CW, I'm so happy to have stumbled across this site, for so many reasons. Thank you, Michelle
  44. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, all! This posting is to all Sleuths on this project, particularly Vetraio50 and Budek, and also to a Medieval Research Librarian at the Medieval Institute/University of Notre Dame. I have been searching for a rubrics mentor for Vetraio50 from among scholarly Dominican and Franciscan houses. I received some excellent advice there: since some of the rubrics mean different things in different contexts, the best way to decipher their meaning is to find a very old priest, preferably pre-Vatican II, and present him with the texts. Since all of my venerable priest friends are deceased, I have been casting a net far and wide, and ended up on the online site of the Medieval Institute at Notre Dame University. I couldn't access materials I wanted because I don't have access, but I came across the name of a Reference Librarian for Medieval Studies. She said that the 'Old Priest as Rubrics Source' idea was actually a very good one. She told me to email her my specifics questions, so I will by posting them to this site and then emailing the link to her. She asked that I provide a contact email address for her response, so I will provide Budek's. Ventraio50, you can address her directly through her email address (if you choose to do so, that is), which will appear on the email she sends to Budek's email, or through Budek. I leave the logistics up to Budek and yourself. I think that this is the most prudent way to go about it. I apologize in advance if it is goofy! Before I start with the questions for the Research Librarian, Vetraio50 - yes "Al" is probably "Alleluia", "X" is Christos, but "Rx" can mean different things in different contexts - - it was this last inquiry that prompted a patient Franciscan Priest in Washington DC to tell me to find a very old priest, etc. OK, here are my questions for the generous Librarian at NDU Medieval Institute: 1.) Is there a good, comprehensive online reference guide that provides the name/label/tag and the function/translation of the rubrics that one might encounter when reciting the Divine Office or Liturgy of the Hours, or the old Mass?, or in an old document like this, or in any Scriptures rendered in old calligraphy? Hard question: Is there such an online guide that won't crash if one's PC or internet browser doesn't allow Zeon Corporation add-ons? 2.) What is the name for the "Rx" symbol? How many senses does it have? I think that the putative value Vetraio50 assigns is this: 'a response at this time/in this context'. 3.) Can you recommend an online site for the Liturgy of the Hours? I found a good one to use if one is praying - posted by the excellent priests of the Priestly Confraternity of St. Peter. However, it doesn't define the rubics it uses. Can you recommend a site that provides both? 4.) What is the best reference work for paleographic scribal notations? E.g., We would like to know the value of 'le(macro) and some digits following before the three divisions of the texts from Acts 9'. (See document photos above, please.) Any ideas about their meaning? A song? What method for translating these types of rubrics would you use - what guide, etc? 5.) This is a goofy question, but I am goofy: Do you know of any old, venerable Priests in Sydney Australia who might possibly serve as a 'Rubrics Mentor' in a pinch? There's a Dominican House of Studies there that has the distinction of being included in some lists of schools distinguished for proficiency in medieval philosophy and theology. One of my own deceased mentors was with an institution linked to that group. Our star translator, Ventraio50 resides in Sydney or thereabouts.

    Please respond to Budek (who is the original Poster of this Document) at uncleuncle@comcast.net

    I thank you most heartily, sincerely, and very respectfully, miKKoChristmas11, one-time amateur calligrapher and very-part-time medieval sleuth.
  45. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Hello, fellow sleuths! These questions are for Vetraio50: 1.) Was the Notre Dame Medieval Research Librarian able to provide you with the names of the online resource materials for the answers you need? Do you have access to these materials? 2.)Did you find a Rubrics Mentor at Dominican House of Studies in Sydney? 3.) Have you used an electronic medieval liturgical resources tool?

    FYI, I have continued the search for a Rubrics Mentor and a Latin Paleographer. The Paleographer will be very hard to find, I think.

    Please respond to questions 1-3 at your convenience. I commend your excellent efforts!!! Thank you very much! Vale. miKKo
  46. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi miKKo!
    No to all three so far. I have not yet been contacted.
    Hope you're well and thanks again!
  47. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Hi, Venraio50! Thank you kindly, Sir, I am well! I have just been busy meddling. I hope to get you some more help soon. Until then, I have a motto for you "celer-silens-mortalis" - motto of some dangerous USMC unit in Vietnam. I mean it as a compliment - you are "swift, silent, deadly" on this project. Your progress gives us courage! Meanwhile, I continue being slow, loud, and harmless. (My description raided from Philip Caputo's A Rumor of War.) -- miKKo
  48. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Good morning, Sleuths! I have been very busy meddling, and hope for an advance soon. Michelle, I think that it would be a terrific idea to request the opinions of Monsignor Leo Lucero. A Monsignor will always be a dangerous man who gets things done. What rashness of me not to heed your suggestion to appeal to him! I have no sense. I sincerely apologize. The thrill of the race blinded me. I completely forgot he existed. Wishing you all a blessed Sunday, miKKo.
  49. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    miKKo, I have been taking the patient route, as I must use the old means of correspondence, U.S. mail. As soon as I pick up the manuscript I am going to send it to Monsignor Lucero, a dear friend from long ago, and once he gets it in the mail, he can, at least tell me what it is on the phone, and then, when he has time, translate it for us. I think he will be happy to help, especially as he wants me to go to Church and such, but has always respected I am a good Christian, in action, and he does not judge. It seems we are making tons of ground, but not quite getting to the bottom of this mystery and I feel he is an excellent and educated ally in our quest. I am just laying low, until I have something informed to say!! As soon as our documents are in Monsignor Lucero's competent hands, I will abstain, like I said, I am two inches short for this ride, but it doesn't take away the fun of watching the ride!! Happy Sunday, Mich
  50. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Excuse me, that last line should read.."Until our documents are in the Monsignor Lucero's competent hands, I will abstain..."
  51. Manikin Manikin, 3 years ago
    Here is a translation of acts 9 Italian to English ? Does this help
    Chapter 9

    1. Saulus autem adhuc spirans minarum, et cædis in discipulos Domini, accessit ad principem sacerdotum, 1. Saulus autem adhuc spirans minarum, et cædis in Disciples Domains, accessit to principem sacerdotum,
    Or Saulo, tuttora spirante minaccia e strage contro i discepoli del Signore, venne al sommo sacerdote, Now Saul, still breathing out murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

    2. et petiit ab eo epistolas in Damascum ad synagogas : ut si quos invenisset hujus viæ viros, ac mulieres, vinctos perduceret in Jerusalem. 2. Et petiit ab eo epistolas in Damascum to synagogas: ut it quos invenisset hujus viae Viros, ac mulieres, vinctos perduceret in Jerusalem.
    e gli chiese delle lettere per le sinagoghe di Damasco, affinché, se ne trovasse di quelli che seguivano la nuova via, uomini e donne, li potesse menar legati a Gerusalemme. and desired of him letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if it found those who followed the new road, men and women, he might menar bound to Jerusalem.

    3. Et cum iter faceret, contigit ut appropinquaret Damasco : et subito circumfulsit eum lux de cælo. 3. Et cum faceret process, ut contigit appropinquaret Damascus immediately circumfulsit eum et de lux caelo.
    E mentre era in cammino, avvenne che, avvicinandosi a Damasco, di subito una luce dal cielo gli sfolgorò d'intorno. And as he journeyed, came to pass, near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.

    4. Et cadens in terram audivit vocem dicentem sibi : Saule, Saule, quid me persequeris ? 4. Et Cadens in terram audivit vocem dicentem sibi: Saule, Saule, quid me persequeris?
    Ed essendo caduto in terra, udì una voce che gli diceva: Saulo, Saulo, perché mi perseguiti? And having fallen to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?

    5. Qui dixit : Quis es Domine ? 5. Here dixit: Quis es Domine? Et ille : Ego sum Jesus, quem tu persequeris : durum est tibi contra stimulum calcitrare. Et ille: Ego sum Jesus, you persequeris quem: durum east tibi against stimulum calcitrare.
    Ed egli disse: Chi sei, Signore? And he said: Who art thou, Lord? E il Signore: Io son Gesù che tu perseguiti. And the Lord, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. Ti è duro ricalcitrar contro gli stimoli. Is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    6. Et tremens ac stupens dixit : Domine, quid me vis facere ? 6. Tremens ac stupens Et dixit: Domine, quid me vis facere?
    Ed egli, tutto tremante e spaventato, disse: Signore, che vuoi tu ch'io faccia? And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me do? Ed il Signore gli disse: lèvati, entra nella città, e ti sarà detto ciò che devi fare. And the Lord said, Arise, go into the city, and you will be told what to do.

    7. Et Dominus ad eum : Surge, et ingredere civitatem, et ibi dicetur tibi quid te oporteat facere. 7. To eum Dominus Et: Surge, et ingredere civitatem, et ibi tibi dicetur quid you oporteat facere. Viri autem illi, qui comitabantur cum eo, stabant stupefacti, audientes quidem vocem, neminem autem videntes. Viri autem unlimited, here comitabantur cum eo, stabant stupefacti, audientes quidem vocem, neminem autem videntes.
    Or gli uomini che faceano il viaggio con lui ristettero attoniti, udendo ben la voce, ma non vedendo alcuno. And the men who faceano traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one.

    8. Surrexit autem Saulus de terra, apertisque oculis nihil videbat. 8. Surrexit autem Saulus de earth, apertisque oculis videbat nihil. Ad manus autem illum trahentes, introduxerunt Damascum. For manus autem illum trahentes, introduxerunt Damascum.
    E Saulo si levò da terra; ma quando aprì gli occhi, non vedeva nulla; e quelli, menandolo per la mano, lo condussero a Damasco. And Saul arose from the ground, but when he opened his eyes, he saw nothing, and those, menandolo by the hand, led him to Damascus.

    9. Et erat ibi tribus diebus non videns, et non manducavit, neque bibit. 9. Et erat ibi tribus diebus not videns, et non manducavit, neque Bibit.
    E rimase tre giorni senza vedere, e non mangiò né bevve. It was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

    10. Erat autem quidam discipulus Damasci, nomine Ananias : et dixit ad illum in visu Dominus : Anania. 10. Erat autem Quidam discipulus Damasci, Ananias appointments: et Dominus dixit to illum in visu: Ananias. At ille ait : Ecce ego, Domine. At ille ait: Ecce ego, Domine.
    Or in Damasco v'era un certo discepolo, chiamato Anania; e il Signore gli disse in visione: Anania! Or there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias and the Lord told him in a vision, Ananias! Ed egli rispose: Eccomi, Signore. And he answered: Here I am, Lord.

    11. Et Dominus ad eum : Surge, et vade in vicum qui vocatur Rectus : et quære in domo Judæ Saulum nomine Tarsensem : ecce enim orat. 11. To eum Dominus Et: Surge, et vade in vicum here vocatur Rectus: et quære in domo Judæ Saulum appointments Tarsensem: exceptional enim orat.
    E il Signore a lui: Lèvati, vattene nella strada detta Diritta, e cerca, in casa di Giuda, un uomo chiamato Saulo, da Tarso; poiché ecco, egli è in preghiera, And the Lord said to him: Arise, go into the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judah, a man called Saul, of Tarsus: for behold he is praying,

    12. (Et vidit virum Ananiam nomine, introëuntem, et imponentem sibi manus ut visum recipiat.) 12. (Et vidit virum Ananiam appointments, introëuntem, et manus ut sibi imponentem visum recipiat.)
    e ha veduto un uomo, chiamato Anania, entrare e imporgli le mani perché ricuperi la vista. and saw a man named Ananias come in and impose hands on him to restore his sight.

    13. Respondit autem Ananias : Domine, audivi a multis de viro hoc, quanta mala fecerit sanctis tuis in Jerusalem : 13. Respondit autem Ananias: Domine, de multis audivi in viro hoc, how bad fecerit sanctis Tuis in Jerusalem:
    Ma Anania rispose: Signore, io ho udito dir da molti di quest'uomo, quanti mali abbia fatto ai tuoi santi in Gerusalemme. But Ananias answered: Lord, I have heard many say this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints in Jerusalem.

    14. et hic habet potestatem a principibus sacerdotum alligandi omnes qui invocant nomen tuum. 14. He feels hic et potestatem to Principibus sacerdotum alligandi omnes invocant nomen tuum here.
    E qui ha podestà dai capi sacerdoti d'incatenare tutti coloro che invocano il tuo nome. And here he has authority from the chief priests of bind all that invoke thy name.

    15. Dixit autem ad eum Dominus : Vade, quoniam vas electionis est mihi iste, ut portet nomen meum coram gentibus, et regibus, et filiis Israël. 15. Dixit Dominus autem to eum: Vade quoniam vas electionis east mihi iste, ut nomen meum portet coram gentibus, et Regibus, filiis et Israël.
    Ma il Signore gli disse: Va', perché egli è uno strumento che ho eletto per portare il mio nome davanti ai Gentili, ed ai re, ed ai figliuoli d'Israele; But the Lord said unto him, 'because he is a tool that I have elected to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel;

    16. Ego enim ostendam illi quanta oporteat eum pro nomine meo pati. 16. Ego enim ostendam illi eum much oporteat appointments pro meo patios.
    poiché io gli mostrerò quante cose debba patire per il mio nome. for I will show him how things should suffer for my name.

    17. Et abiit Ananias, et introivit in domum : et imponens ei manus, dixit : Saule frater, Dominus misit me Jesus, qui apparuit tibi in via qua veniebas, ut videas, et implearis Spiritu Sancto. 17. Abiit And Ananias, et introivit in domum: imponens and et manus, dixit: fraternity Saule, Dominus Jesus misit me, being here apparuit tibi veniebas here, ut videas, et Spiritu Sancto implearis.
    E Anania se ne andò, ed entrò in quella casa; e avendogli imposte le mani, disse: Fratello Saulo, il Signore, cioè Gesù, che ti è apparso sulla via per la quale tu venivi, mi ha mandato perché tu ricuperi la vista e sii ripieno dello Spirito Santo. And Ananias went and entered into the house; And having laid his hands, said: Brother Saul, the Lord, Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me so you may regain his sight and Be filled with the Holy Spirit.

    18. Et confestim ceciderunt ab oculis ejus, tamquam squamæ, et visum recepit : et surgens baptizatus est. 18. Et confestim ceciderunt ab oculis ejus, tamquam squamæ, et visum recepit: et surgens baptizatus east.
    E in quell'istante gli caddero dagli occhi come delle scaglie, e ricuperò la vista; poi, levatosi, fu battezzato. And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received sight, then rose and was baptized.

    19. Et cum accepisset cibum, confortatus est. 19. Et cum accepisset cibum, confortatus east. Fuit autem cum discipulis qui erant Damasci, per dies aliquot. Fuit autem Cumulative discipulis here erant Damasci, for dies aliquot.
    E avendo preso cibo, riacquistò le forze. And having taken food, he regained his strength. E Saulo rimase alcuni giorni coi discepoli che erano a Damasco. And Saul was certain days with the disciples in Damascus.

    20. Et continuo in synagogis prædicabat Jesum, quoniam hic est Filius Dei. 20. Et continuous synagogis prædicabat Jesum, hic quoniam east Filius Dei.
    E subito si mise a predicar nelle sinagoghe che Gesù è il Figliuol di Dio. And immediately he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God

    21. Stupebant autem omnes qui audiebant, et dicebant : Nonne hic est qui expugnabat in Jerusalem eos qui invocabant nomen istud : et huc ad hoc venit ut vinctos illos duceret ad principes sacerdotum ? 21. Stupebant autem here audiebant omnes, et dicebant: Granny hic expugnabat here in east Jerusalem here invocabant nomen ISTUD eos: et ut hue ad hoc venit vinctos illos duceret ad principes sacerdotum?
    E tutti coloro che l'udivano, stupivano e dicevano: Non è costui quel che in Gerusalemme infieriva contro quelli che invocano questo nome ed è venuto qui allo scopo di menarli incatenati ai capi sacerdoti? And all who heard him were amazed, and said: Is not this what in Jerusalem ravaged those who call on this name and came here in order to menarli bound to the chief priests?
  52. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 3 years ago
    Manikin, out of the blue with the Italian translation, that is huge!! You are really an amazing person, like vetraio50, you are leopards that cover a lot of terrain!! It will still be interesting to find out what kind of document this is...a calligrapher's practice sheet, a theological student? Why are there different writing utensils, inks and different writing styles? May I ask, mani, where you found the ranslation, or shall I say, what should I google..."The conversion of Saul"? Here is where my lack of religious upbringing becomes glaring!! Thank you for quenching all of our curiosity as to what might be being said. Many of the words are the same , or close, in Latin and Italian...maybe if I found a French version.... I can't wait to hear what Monsignor Lucero says..., Have fun, Mich
  53. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    Greetings, Sleuths! Thank you, thank you, Manikin!!! This is Latin, Italian (I think), and English. Wow. May I ask where you got this, please?

    I appealed this morning to two scholars in New York, one a retired Professor and his son also a professional univeristy academic. I've forgotten the son's title. Anyway, the retired Professor is a pre-Vatican II scholar, a polyglot - Greek, Latin, German, Yiddish, and who knows how many other languages. He is a scholar of the first rank. He has expertise in philosophy, theology, history, economics, and languages. Excellent Latin, and has a scholarly network as extensive as the Mafia. His son, an old classmate of mine, is a Historian, also a polyglot, and has expertise in Renaissance Latin, along with other languages. I hope to hear from them soon. Vetraio50, I asked the Professors for help in getting the tools you need. I won't forget you.

    Advancing! This is great, Manikin! Thank you! Also, Michelle, you are just a wonderful teammate!!! Vale! miKKo
  54. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi All!
    It's all in Latin, what they call the "Vulgate". In French it is called: "La Vulgate".
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate.

    I still reckon that it is part of a Mass for January 25 or the Third Sunday after the Epiphany.

    Michelle I'm sorry you did not get a copy of my transcription.
    The manuscript is just one page. There were pages before it and after it. They are now missing. As you've seen there are parts of Acts 9. There are also other Biblical quotes in the text. (Galatians 2. 8, 9).

    I'll provide the full text transcribed below. Beware it is long. I've also added the full forms of what I believe are the Notae and the superscripts in red. CW will not put them in red. I've added the full forms. I've also added some of my notes at the end as well. They refer to a) through e) in my transcription. Where you see the a) it refers to a chant or response that would be sung out by the congregation.
    This will provide Monsignor Lucero and the others interested with something to work on.

    regards Kevin G.


    Text Begins
    spirans minarum et cedis in discipulos domini accessit ad principem sacerdotum et pecijt ab eo epistolas in damascum ad sinagogas ut si quos in venisset huius ive viros ac mulieres vinctos perduceret in irlem
    hymnus
    doctor egregie (NB a)
    allleluia
    Tu es vas electionis sancte paule apostole

    Rx: Praedicator veritatis et doctor gentium in universo mundo.

    Antiphony: Vade anania et quaere saulum ecce enim orat quia vas electionis est mihi ut portet nomen meum coram regibus et filiis israel.

    oratio


    Deus qui universum mondum b(ea)ti pauli apostoli praedicatione docuisti da nobis quaesumus ut qui eius hodie conversionem colimus, per eius ad te exempla gratiamur.

    p. (NB b)
    Sciendum …… Paulo celebrat sit de sancto petro …. an.

    Tu es pastor ovium princeps apostolorum tibi tradite sunt claves regni celorum.

    allleluia
    Tu es Petrus.
    Rx: Et super hanc petram hedificabo ecclesiam meam.

    oratio

    Deus qui beato petro apostolo tuo collatis clavibus regni celestis
    ( alias?) ligandi atque solvendi pontificium tradidisti concede ut intercessionis eius auxilio, apeccatorum (sic) nostrorum nexibus liberemur

    P (NB c)

    Similit qn’ sit de sancto petro/ sit 9mo d’ sancto Paulo ant.

    Sancte paule apostole

    allleluia
    Tu es vas electionis
    Rx: Praedicator veritatis

    oremo.
    Deus qui universum

    Ad matutinum. Invitatorium.
    Laudemus deum nostrum.
    In conversione doctoris gentium

    Ps
    Venite.

    Hymnus.
    Doctor (NB d)

    In primo nocturno. ant
    Qui operates est Petro in apostolatum operates est et mihi inter gentes et cognoverunt gratiam quae data est mihi (NB e)

    Psalm
    Caeli enarant

    A
    Ps
    Benedicam
    An
    Michi atque vivere Christus (est) et mori lucrum, gloriari me (sic) oportet in cruce domini nostri jesu christi

    Eructavit (NB f)
    Vvvvv (alleluia et kyrie alleluia di xxx discipoli apostolorum vv vv)


    Saulus (autem) adhuc spirans minarum et cedis in discipulos domini accessit ad principem sacerdotum et pecijt (sic) abeo (sic) epistolas in damascum adsinagogas (sic) ut si quos in (sic) veniret (sic) hujus vie viros ac mulieres vinctos perduceret in irlem (Jerusalem).

    R. Qui operatus est petro in apostolatum operatus est et mihi inter gentes
    Et cognoverunt graziam quod data est mihi Christo
    Gratia dei in me vacua non fuit sed gratia eius semper in me manet.
    Et cognoverunt

    (Galatians 2. 8, 9)

    Et cum iter faceret contigit ut appropinquaret damasco. Et subito circumfulsit eum lux de cello et cadens in terram audivit vocem dicentem sibi : Saule, Saule, quid me persequeris. Qui dixit: Quis es, domine? Et ille
    R. Bonum certamen certavi cursum consumavi (et) fidem servavi.
    Et deo quidem reposita est mihi corona iusticie Christo
    Scio cui credidi et certus sum quia potens est depositum meum servare in illum diem, (Second epistle of Paul to Timothy 1, 12)
    R (Jesus deo quod est)
    (Len 3a)
    Ego sum jesus nazarenus quem tu persequeris. Durum est tibi contra stimulum calcitrare. Et tremesentis (sic) ac stupens dixit: Domine, quid me vis facere? Viri autem illi qui comitabantur cum illo stabant (scupefacti audienetes quidem vocem nemiem autem videntes)
    (Acts 9 l.7)











    NOTES:

    a)
    Egregie Doctor Paule, mores instrue,
    Et nostra tecum pectora in caelum trahe:
    Velata dum meridiem cernat fides,
    Et solis instar sola regnet caritas.

    Sit Trinitati sempiterna gloria,
    Honor, potestas, atque jubilatio,
    In unitate, quae gubernat omnia,
    Per universa aeternitatis saecula.
    Amen.

    Alleluia

    b) p(er dominum nostrum iesum christum filium tuum qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate spiritus sancti deus per omnia saecula saeculorum.)

    c) Per Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum, Filium tuum: qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitáte Spíritus Sancti Deus, per ómnia s?cula sæculórum.

    d) (egregie Paule. versus. Annue Christe.)

    e) (a Christo Domino)

    f) (cor meum verbum)
  55. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 3 years ago
    What a thrill!!!! OK, I'm confused. Have you checked all the endings for correspondence? Notre Dame and I thought the Latin odd. There was a lack of correspondence between what you originally proposed and the manuscript, and so I thought - the Vulgate. Please explain when you get time. Wow, what a lot of play this document has. OK, now, the Mass is consistent with the devotional format. (When you get a moment, for your information google "Breviary" and "Divine Office".) Great. Now, are you meaning to sign off on this? I mean, do you mean to pass the baton to us? I'm curious what you did about the scribal notations. How did you work them out? Hooray!!! Outstanding!!!Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! miKKo
  56. Manikin Manikin, 3 years ago
    Your test says in italian the following MiKKo

    yield, and breathing out threatenings against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest Wenceslas asked of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogue, and that if he had come of this I've found in both men and women might bring them bound in the irlem
    A hymn
    a brilliant teacher (NB a)
    allleluia
    You are a vessel of election, Saint Paul the Apostle

    Rx: The preacher of the truth, the teacher of the Gentiles in the whole world.

    Antiphony: Go seek Saul, for behold he prayeth of Hanan, and because it is a chosen vessel to me to carry my name before the kings and the children of Israel.

    speech


    God that all mondum b (that) he was the Apostle Paul, preaching to us, give us this day that his conversion, we may, by his example, grace to you.

    a. (Note b)
    It should be a celebration of St. Peter .... ...... or.

    You are a keeper of sheep, deliver up the prince of the apostles unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

    allleluia
    You are Peter.
    Rx: And upon this rock I will hedificabo my church.

    speech

    O God, who blessed the apostle Peter the keys of the heavenly kingdom conferred upon your
    (Otherwise?) Of binding and allow him to have to pay the chief priests have delivered the help of her intercession, apeccatorum (sic) may be freed of our bonds of

    P (Note c)

    Follows the same "is the St. Peter / d is 9mo" St. Paul Sunday.

    Saint Paul the Apostle

    allleluia
    You are the weapon of choice
    Rx: The preacher of truth

    I pray.
    God that all

    In the morning. Invitatory.
    Let us praise our God.
    The conversion of the Apostle of the Gentiles

    Ps
    Come.

    Hymn.
    Doctor (Note d)

    In the first of the night. or
    He who wrought in Peter to the apostleship, wrought in me also among the Gentiles: and they perceived the grace that was given to me (NB e)

    The
    Air enarant

    A
    Ps
    Bless
    Or
    Me to live is Christ, and (,) and to die is gain, to glory in me (sic) of our Lord Jesus on the cross of Christ, it is necessary to

    Uttered (Note f)
    Vvvvv (Alleluia, Alleluia gods and Lord of the apostles thirty discipoli w w)


    Saul, (but), as yet breathing out threatenings and yield, and the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest Wenceslas asked for (sic) go away (sic) letters to Damascus, adsinagogas (sic) in that if he (sic) come (sic) the sheriff, both men and women of this might bring them bound in irlem (Jerusalem).

    R. He who wrought in Peter to the apostleship, wrought in me also among the nations
    Graziam and they knew that Christ was given to me
    The grace of God hath not been void in me, but the grace of his remains ever in me.
    And they knew

    (Galatians 2. 8, 9)

    And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus. And a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him and he fell to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me. And he said: Who art thou, Lord? And he
    R. He hath perfected the course of a good fight, have I wrestled (and) have kept the faith.
    And, indeed, God, Christ, there is laid up for me a crown of justice
    I know whom I have believed and I am certain that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day, (Second Page of Paul to Timothy 1, 12)
    R (Jesus God which is')
    (Len 3)
    I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting. Is hard for thee to kick against the goad. And tremesentis (sic), and amazed and said: O Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the men which journeyed with him stood (scupefacti audienetes a voice but seeing no one)
    (Acts 9 l.7)











    NOTES:

    a)
    Paul, an eminently learned, prepare a character,
    And with our hearts in the draw:
    Veiled when they can see the faith of the South,
    And reign alone like a star charity.

    To the Trinity be glory for ever,
    Honor, power, and praise,
    In the unity of the, which governs all things,
    Through all ages of eternity.
    Amen.

    The

    b) p (T hrough our Lord Jesus Christ your son, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, world without end.)

    c) Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end world without end.

    d) (Paul admirably. verses of poetry. Bow down to Christ.)

    e) (by Christ the Lord)

    f) (the word of my heart)














  57. Manikin Manikin, 3 years ago
    Oops I mean your Text not a test LOL that was a typo .
  58. vetraio50 vetraio50, 3 years ago
    Hi mikko.
    It's not that I think it is all resolved.
    The text has been transcribed with a couple of problems.
    The paleographical work needs to continue.
    I remember as a kid having a Latin missal before Vatican II. We used it each day at Mass and was used to the Vulgate Latin. At school I did Classical Latin and the differences are wide between Vulgate and CL. At Uni I did work on the origins of Italian and the first movements from the Vulgate into the new language that Dante Alighieri invented. Before Dante the scribes would unintentionally (in the main) insert their own local dialects into their transcriptions of the texts. The same thing happened outside Italy and there were similar 'errata' in texts. The real experts could look at this manuscript and would be able to identify where it was written from these 'errata'.

    When I was transcribing the text I made notes about some of the differences within it and the 'normal' Vulgate forms that Manikin has outlined. I don't think it is hugely different as such. There seems to have been a pperiod in the transcription where the scribe tired to the point where there are a series of successive errors.
    At University I was taught by Frederick May, Professor of Italian at Sydney University ( the most extraordinary mind that I have ever met ) and I remember him telling us that the scribes worked on a text like this for a year or more. When you look the work they did they were writing down a copy of another book that was used as a perfect copy. Within their work there would be mistakes and he suggested that you could actually pin-point the end of a day's work and see where the scribe took breaks because of fatigue. This was an arduous task, but a task that was done with care and love for the words and the work that they were performing.

    So I'd like to make my comments on the text.

    I note the following:
    The use of cedis not caedis. - dialectal contamination?
    Adprincipem and not ad prinipem (an unwitting mistranscription)
    The use of pecijt and not petijt - palatalization, dialectal contamination?
    The use of sinagogas not synagogas
    The use of ive = ve - dialectal contamination?
    The use of irlem for Jerusalem
    The use of mondo not mundo - dialectal contamination?
    the deletion "gentibus et" in the expression "gentius et regibus" (homeoteleuton)
    The use of gradiamur not gratiamur - dialectal contamination?
    The use of hedificabo = aedificabo - dialectal contamination?
    The use of celestis not caelestis - palatalization, dialectal contamination?
    The use of apeccatorum not a peccatorum (an unwitting mistranscription)
    The use of gn’ciu; for gentium - palatalization, dialectal contamination?
    The use of vie not viae - dialectal contamination?
    The use of ml’ieres = mulieres - metathesis?

    An expert would be able to look at these and perhaps suggest a town in Italy.

  59. Budek Budek, 3 years ago
    I am quite overwhelmed. Thank You all for your kindness, and for the time spent coming to understand this humble little page.

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