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Cross upside down with beast! Where is this from? and how old?Mystery solved!

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Silver Collecting54 of 70Queen Victoria Silver DishSterling Forks - Need Help Identifying Hallmark!
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Posted 2 years ago

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toracat
(649 items)

Hello I bought this at online auction, I think most people did not want it! All they said is possibly Artesian Rose Gold, They said Hallmark was unreadable, Chain is 22 inches, and pendant is 1 1/2 inch by 1 inch. I have no idea of when it was made or where it was made and what it means. It is on the way to my house now! Any information would be appreciated. Thank you toracat Well a friend of mine solved this! It is a pipe tamper! below you can read the Auction listing! and how inky solved this! Thanks inky!! looks like Notre Dame gargoyle!!!

Mystery Solved

Comments

  1. inky inky, 2 years ago
    Do you think it might be an old smoking pipe tamper....:)
  2. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    You might be right! The auction place advertised it as Cross with beast! I like it kind of! thanks!
  3. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I think you are right! toracat
  4. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    WELCOME TO GIRE AUCTIONS!!!OUR ITEM DESCRIPTION
    Absolutely Rare & unique upside down cross pendant w/ beast dog. Necklace. We do not
  5. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    inky you are 100% right and auction was wrong! I am glad as no jinx will be put on me! haha toracat
  6. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    inky you are a genius! I for some reason do not think the chain was made same time as the tamper, I think it is quite old, will arrive early next week! thanks again!! toracat
  7. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    inky I changed top of story!! please read!! thanks again! After it arrives I will take new photo and try to read hallmark!!
  8. inky inky, 2 years ago
    I am more!!!! pleased to think that I have averted a jinx that might have been placed upon you!...:-)... but! also that we have solved the mystery. I am really looking forward to seeing better photos when you receive it....till then..stay safe..:-)
  9. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    Thanks!! hey inky is that a cat, auction said dog! but looks like cat to me! again thanks, Take care!
  10. PhilDavidAlexanderMorris PhilDavidAlexanderMorris, 2 years ago
    Its a gorgeous piece, I can see me wanting it also. You should write the auction and ask if they still have the high pixel images for this item ! The face looks like some of the devil mascots I have seen from the twenties, almost. Beautiful.
  11. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    Hi it is a pipe tamper, yes, I am sure it is. What kind of animal is it, Auction said dog, (see above) they also said it may be Artesan Rose Gold. They said could not read hallmark? I am hoping it is gold!! I wanted it and thought I paid a lot for it, I paid $67.00 which is more than I usually would, but I liked it
  12. inky inky, 2 years ago
    To me it it looks like a gargoyle. It has been suggested that the purpose of gargoyles were to scare away evil spirits. and since yours is in a shape of the cross ...very intriguing...:-)

    If you google gargoyle and have a look at the 'images' you will see what I mean.

    I have found an interesting site and if stroll down there is on that looks similar to yours.....:-)

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1Atu3x4SpCUJ:occultview.com/tag/gargoyles/+gargoyles+evil+spirits&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz
  13. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I thought gargoyle also!! When I was in Paris at Notre Dame Cathedral it was raining and the water from roof came out the gargoyles mouths!! Used as drain pipes! toracat maybe French?
  14. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    inky google notr dame gargoyles and see images! toracat
  15. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    New photos! It came Sat. I do think it may be rose gold, but I like it either way, no markings on chain, and if square on beast is hallmark I can not read it, so I just put them in boiling water for few minutes and this is how they look.
  16. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I believe this is rose gold and chain is old rose gold but clasp is yellow gold and added later!
  17. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I was just studying this as a pipe tamper and I have an old pipe, it will not go down inside as the arms of cross will not let it? How big were openings on pipes years ago? maybe not a pipe tamper?
  18. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I was thinking more, if you fill pipe to the top of rim then you could tamper down about 5/8"?
  19. inky inky, 2 years ago
    Hello toracat...tampers were used for pressing tobacco down in your pipe before lighting once you had filled it, if you look most of them were quite short like the one you have... if it is a tamper!!!.... I think it may be but if some weighed in and confirmed it, or not!! that would be good!...great fun researching though isn't it?....:-)
  20. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I think and hope it is a tamper, I believe it is for sure! thanks to you!! I have so much fun researching and with friends like you and others, it is much easier!! thanks again!! I sure would like to know where and where it was made! but may never know!!
  21. inky inky, 2 years ago
    That's just it!!!!.. you never know!!.. keep looking and you will come across something similar, and you will!.. I'm sure of it!....:-)
  22. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    so true!!
  23. Hems303 Hems303, 2 years ago
    Hi toracat
    Lovely item, I have seen something very similar in silver, it had a crenellated castle tower where your gargoyle is. That WAS a tamper held by a collector of CLAY pipes in London. He explained he walks the banks of the River Thames at low tide, collecting broken clay pipes and their broken "stems". It is apparently called "mudlarking" and they have to have a licence from the Port of London Authority to do it...anyway I digress! He explained (I am into silver) that his item was a tamper for the shallow and narrow bowl clay pipes of long ago. The nature of his silver, and your gold casting suggest a very early date, I am guessing about the time of clay pipes??? Hope this helps a little. (I think I remember his tamper was held on a piece of string, not a nice chain like yours)
  24. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    what is date of early times of clay pipes? I would enjoy knowing! thanks a lot!!
  25. Hems303 Hems303, 2 years ago
    Mid 16th C to early 18th C....I think.
  26. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    WOW thank you very much, no way of knowing what country? I guess you are a great help! toracat
  27. inky inky, 2 years ago
    Oh!!!!! toracat how exciting!!..:-) I am thrilled to have come along on this journey of yours, I am soooooo!!!!! pleased for you!...:-)
  28. Hems303 Hems303, 2 years ago
    I can't really remember clearly, but I think the silver castle tamper I saw in London he said was 1760 or 1780...can't be more specific, unfortunately I'm no longer in touch with this collector to ask him. :(
  29. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    Thanks to you! not too many gold pipe tampers in the world, I will put in saf deposit box! haha A friend said he raid about natl. pipe museum in Holland, maybe I will look and send photos to them! take care!! toracat
  30. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I am happy no matter how old! It has been fun learning about this! Thanks to all that have helped in this! toracat
  31. Hems303 Hems303, 2 years ago
    Another thing I have just remembered he told me (we chatted about so much!)...his had three tamper heads too..... he said that smokers (he was one too) would tamp the burning tobacco to get "an even draw" and would sometimes rapidly "rotate" between the three heads in sequence, puffing as they went, and this was why sometime he would find the side broken out of discarded pipes with no evidence of other damage. Several of this guys Thames finds are now in the Museum of London (they had to hand in the better finds or so he claimed)
  32. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    Thank you again!
  33. Hems303 Hems303, 2 years ago
    A quick image:
    http://www.walpoleantiques.com/detail.php?id_ite=976
  34. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    That is close to same size! thanks! and a cross!
  35. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    Toracat, this is a replica of an ancient piece of Icelandic bronze age jewelry that was found in an archaeological dig. I very nearly bought the same piece myself a number of years ago in Denmark. It symbolizes Thor's hammer, shaped like a cross (a symbol which slowly became more prolific in jewelry of the age), whose handle terminates in a Dragon's head.
  36. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    They are still being produced in bronze, gold, silver etc. Here is a photo:
    http://www.museum-jewelry.dk/includes/visfoto.asp?id=65
  37. Hems303 Hems303, 2 years ago
    That probably why yours, toracat is made out of gold not mere silver or bronze...still it would make a nice pipe tamper.....wonder if Thor smoked a pipe? ;)
  38. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    Yes, as Hems303 has alluded to... its worth having it tested once it arrives toracat, so you can determine the metal for certain. The pink blush in some of these pictures may suggest a base metal which has been plated. Whatever the case - its something to be enjoyed for its historical significance, and as a piece of quirky jewellery!
  39. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    the mystery continues! it does look like a gorgyle!
  40. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    Did you read my posts 36 & 37 above, toracat? Its been identified as a replica piece of Bronze Age jewellery.
  41. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    Yes and I will take to local gold place here and have tested, but looks like gargoyle exactly to me, see new photo. I also have watch chain old that is plated and it is missing spots here and there. Why would someone have new gold clasp added later? it may be a fake? I do not know? I will try to post auction on here.
  42. toracat toracat, 2 years ago



    Preview Image


    View More Images

    ~Artisan Rose Gold? Cross Beast Pendant Necklace~ (11301987)
    Currently $67.60 USD
    Item ID # 11301987
    Quantity 1













    Click any thumbnail image to enlarge




    WELCOME TO GIRE AUCTIONS!!! OUR ITEM DESCRIPTION
    Absolutely Rare & unique upside down cross pendant w/ beast dog. Necklace. We do not know if it is Genuine Amber, but it appears to be. Necklace 22” approx. in length. Pendant is 1” by 1.5” approx..

    ITEM CONDITION NOTES
    Good decent condition

    SIGNATURES / HALLMARKS
    Not readable

    FLAT RATE HANDLING PRICE CHART
    CHARGES BASED ON ITEM SHIP WEIGHT

    YOUR ORDER WEIGHT
    YOUR HANDLING PRI
  43. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I paid $67.00 more than usual! I have had $500 worth of fun and learning!!
  44. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    AMBER! wow why they say that? they were confused about this piece
  45. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    Yes, it appears they were doing a fair bit of guesswork themselves, and/or they had copy/pasted some info from a previous listing, and forgot to change some of the details.

    Anyway, heres a link to the museum shop that produces these replicas.
    http://www.museum-jewelry.dk/default.asp?command=shop&refvareId=157&kat=253&subkat=256&#157

    The 'Legend of La Gargouille' (AD 631–641) referred to a beast with bat-like wings, a long neck, and the ability to breathe fire. So we are basically talking about the same thing. Dragon = Gargoyle.

    All the best.
  46. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I believe this is original, you know how something just feels right, looks right, the auction was a goodwill store auction, they have no practice in researching, they get everything wrong sometimes. Now more people watch, awhile back I got a nice gold necklace with ruby and little diamonds, cheap, it is real, and I got a gold ring with 2 emeralds and 3 seed pearls with 1900 on inside of ring, art nouveau. I will post themj.
  47. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    Hi again,
    Respectfully, I'm not sure what you mean when you say you believe this piece is original? Original to whom? The Vikings?? :)
    I'd guess yours is an older replica of the very same museum piece... perhaps created by another jeweller/manufacturer.
    It would be helpful if there was some way you could photograph the hallmark, or at least the area the hallmark is made visible.
  48. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    The replica is not like mine, it is different, until I see exact, I will believe in mine, it is not a dragon, it is much thinner and intricately made. That is just me speaking, by looking at it. I will test it but they make repros in gold also, well if it is gold, I got a good price! If not gold, I still like it, I sent photos to Amsterdam pipe museum, I will post if they get back to me! again thanks for the help!
  49. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    I will try to photograph where the hallmark is and post it. I am now getting tired of this a little, not so much fun!
  50. toracat toracat, 2 years ago
    New photo
  51. VolDeNuit, 2 years ago
    Do excuse my offering to help you identify this piece.

    I do not wish to tire anyone out, nor suck the fun from the room!
    I leave my findings with you, and shall refrain from commenting again.

    Best,
    VdN

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