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Posted 7 months ago
kulektor
(8 items)
10/19/2012 First 3 images are newly uploaded . Pics were outside in natural light, the blue is a litte washed out, but very close to real time on our monitor. We decided there was no need to change the mark pic.
thanks,
Eddie
We would appreciate any help on the maker of this delicate blue & white porcelain teapot with blue underglaze lion rampant mark. Below the mark is the letter U with a dot both underglaze. Would this be some decorator mark? We have found similar lion marks, but have not found an exact match. In ours pictured above the crown appears to be right up on the lions left side of the head which obscures the tongue being out. We believe it is of German origin dating to either 18th or 19th.
Decorated with 2 different larger flowers (Straw?) repeated twice each. Wishbone handle has blue white decoration from top to bottom (exterior), and the spout is decorated on both sides. Any help would be most welcome. Frankenthal, Thuringia?
Measures 3 3/4"h (w/cover 4/1/2") x 7 7/8"w spout tip to handle tip x 2 3/8" diameter base.
Thank you.
Eddie
Meissen ChinaJohann Friedrich Böttger, the father of Meissen porcelain, was a hard-drink…
Kettles and TeapotsKettles or teakettles, as they are also called, are made out of tough mater…
very stunning and very beautiful:)
That looks like a lion rampant and crown in underglaze blue. The similarities to the decor of the Royal Copenhagen Blue Fluted Half Lace is certainly there. What do you think miKKo? It's most interesting Eddie. A real globe tea pot shape and the handle is quite different too: it's a Meissen shape.
No country of origin?
It's very small!
It may be trying to be Kassell Porcelain of Hessen.
Check out this coffee pot.
"It is said that all pieces of Kassel porcelain (about 200 known in the world) are accounted for but this piece is certainly made by them and my father discovered it just recently."
http://www.porcelainbiz.com/porcelain/kasselcoffeepot1.htm
Festina lente!
Hasten slowly, Eddie.
This is what it might be, proving it is another matter best left to "real experts".
Thanks Bellin68, miKKo and vetrai50.
vetraio50, Took a look at the Kassell, there are many similarities, but think lion is a little different. Will be very careful and not get over excited. I am leaning towards Germany for country of origin. The ribbing is found on many 18th/19th century wares from Thurigia, but have also found others use the same design such as the Kassell you sent. I am fairly certain it is hard paste, but don't dare take a file to the base. Only marks I have found for Frankenthal are the CT with crown, but keep reading about the Lion rampant mark. Thank you for the input, really is appreciated.
Eddie
Hi, all! Sorry, Vetraio, this time I didn't receive notice of any postings after mine. I think that your Kassell hypothesis is inspired and acute!
Wonderful piece! Yes, I immediately noticed the similarity to RC's half lace tea pot, but I also recognized that this is neither RC nor half lace – as you did yourself, of course. The porcelain body is less white than RC's, and is not as ‘smooth’. Also, the ‘flow’ blue doesn’t seem right for RC, though perhaps it is. It amazes me how many patterns are similar to these two, but are not these two.
Yes, shape very similar to Meissen.
http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2012/02/13/index.html
That exhausts my reasonably intelligent opinions on this piece, but since we are considering “any” opinions, and I’ve been asked to contribute, I shall be rash, with the hopes that my nonsense might somehow stimulate some thought in my more learned CW confreres.
It seems to me that this piece is not as white, or crisply potted as a Meissen would be. Also, ‘paint style’ is rather less ‘controlled’ than Meissen, I opine rashly. No, I know you’re not trying for a Meissen ID. I know we are trying for Germany, but doesn’t this shape also remind you of circa 1700 Elers and 1740 Salt Glaze teapots? Please ignore that remark, because I think that this is perhaps Frankenthal. Also, is it my imagination, or is the reeding here interrupted right below the top join of the handle and pot? Not a half-reeded pot but a bi-reeded pot? (Perhaps tri-reeded?) I see that the ‘Kassell’ has multiple bands of reeds. Is this a form found in Thuringia? If anyone knows what this form of ‘reeding’ is called, I’d love to know. I am embarrassed to ask, but I need to learn. Observe the ‘non-flat shape’ at the terminus of the reeds in the upper ‘hemisphere’ of the globe pot. Is it my imagination, or are some of these reeds ‘staggered’ with respect to the row beneath them? Finally, perhaps it’s the photo, perhaps it’s the lighting, but doesn’t the globe spout look rather ‘glassy’? I think it would perhaps be important to know exactly what color this globe porcelain is. Does it tend to cream or to grey?
Now, as to the marks. The lion in your piece is clearly painted on free hand, and so there will be variations in its form. You will notice that the ‘paint’ has ‘blobbed’, which is a deviation in itself. Also, hallmarks do sometimes change. Here is the lion rampant mark for Frankenthal. (Please note: Not “Frankenthaler” here.) Sometimes it appears accompanied by initials designating a person other than the Elector Carl Theodore, the “CT” of Frankenthal. Eddie, did you mean that you couldn’t find the lion, but only the “CT” with crown?
http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/germany6.shtml
Final caveat: the resolution on my laptop is poor so I cannot see images as well as many can.
Good night, all! Thanks for inviting me into the discussion; I enjoyed it greatly! miKKo
I think the reeding is called "fluting".
"The Danish term for Blue Fluted is ’musselmalet’, and there are many suggestions for how the name came into being. The story the majority of experts hold with is that ‘musselmalet’ comes from the German work for scallop (‘Muschel’), as the outer side of the Blue Fluted porcelain service is fluted just like on a scallop. This would mean that ’musselmalet’ actually refers to the Blue Fluted service itself, whereas throughout the years the Danish term for Blue Fluted has been used to describe the pattern. The characteristic Blue Fluted pattern is inspired by popular ancient Chinese porcelain motifs and consists of stylized flowers (Chrysanthemum and Potentilla) with 'palmettes' composed of small leaves. Even though Blue Fluted porcelain was produced in Meissen in Germany long before we began producing it in Denmark, the Blue Fluted pattern is recognized the world over as typically Danish."
http://www.lauritz.com/Article/Article.aspx?article=1338&ArticleGroupId=10&LanguageId=2
These are some later Frankenthal marks tha Eddie may have seen:
http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/rhineland/frankenthal_1/00.php
Good morning, all! Vetraio, thank you very much for the magnificent treatment on Danish fluting and the floral motifs!!! May I ask, why the fluting is 'discombobulated' in this piece? I have never seen a shell that was discombobulated like this is. Did I miss something? Quite possibly, I did. : )
Vetraio, I cannot follow you on the Frankenthal marks you've just linked. Those are for 'Frankenthal II', which was in operation from 1949-1964. The marks I offered are from the original Frankenthal, which was established in 1755 by Paul Hannong, and which closed in 1800. Thanks!
Hi miKKo, sorry for my discombobberative addition of the Frankenthal marks. If I can recombobulate then, they were merely to fill everyone in on the Frankenthal 'problem'. The staggered ribbing on the Kassell @ porcelain biz in #3 above defines four areas. On this pot the division is into three sections with the lid providing another clear contrasting surface. The original Qing dynasty Chinese and Japanese Imari teapots had single fluted balusters, but also sectioned forms too. An nice repaired sectioned example can be found here on a favourite site called Past Imperfect:
http://andrewbaseman.com/blog/?tag=english&paged=6
and for something really extraordinary for a fluted teapot check out this Delft one which has tickled my fancy and distracted my eye:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O163005/teapot-eenhoorn-lambertus-van/
Hello vetraio50 and miKKO, thank you both for sharing information.
miKKO regarding the Frankenthal marks, I have seen the black drawn marks but have not been able to find an image of the blue underglaze lion rampant so that I can compare. I feel the Farenthal mark at oldandsold is similar to the teapot mark, but would like to see another in color.
vetraio50 you are correct in that the marks I find are the TC with crown. i've viewed many on different sites. Sites such as Harvard, Christie's, Sotheby's have images of the articlel sans mark. They tend to describe the mark. (Note to Harvard, Christies, Sotheby's: Mark pics is a good thing and would be helpful). I have also been to a few retail places which have alot of early german porcelains, again no image of the blue lion rampant mark. Lots of the TC crown vetraio50 showed link to. I know somewhere it will show up, until then will keep searching.
miKKo, I took some pics today in natural daylight in the hopes the color will be easier to identify as either gray or cream. I will be exchanging them for the older images already on this quiry. Personally I see it as white with a blue tinge, which I guess would be on account of the heavy decoration. If I had to choose between gray and cream I honestly would have a problem as I really don't see either. One thing I did notice with the new images is that the teapot does not look as glossy as it did with the flash pic. In that it looks somewhat closer to the Kassell pot vetraio50 shared the link. Even after a few washings the teapot still has quite a few drops of old paint so I removed them as I took pics. Hope the new images will show the ribbing/fluting, there are 3 different sections with possibly a 4th along the bottom row of (what I call) half fans. The first two end in a V which flow into the below rows top. From some of the research I found that the fluting was used by potteries in Thuringia, though it was not exclusive to Thuringia.
Eventually someone will take one look and know exactly who the maker is.. or atleast that is my hope.
Thanks all.
Eddie
Onya Eddie! By the by did you see the early English New Hall lion mark? Perhaps you can get access to some of the older ceramics marks books? Libraries still have hidden gems!
Hi, all!
1.) Vetraio, I am thoroughly thrilled with your research on ribbing, and all the linked items! Thank you! RE hallmarks link. OK, I’m on page now. Your knowledge of porcelain is far superior to mine, and I thought that you might have just pulled another rabbit out of a hat, as you do. Thank you for all the rabbits past and future which you pull from hats. : )
2.) Eddie, I found an image of the blue underglaze lion rampant mark. I have emailed the auction house and asked them if they could please email me the photo. I will let you know if I hear anything from them. You might have to register, which is free, to view the hallmark photo in the link below, as it is not the primary auction photo. Someone with much more graphics expertise than I could perhaps enhance it. Here’s a link.
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/oval-platter,-frankenthal,-1759-1762.-antiquites-38-c-d554e74d52
Here’s an image of a very similar Frankenthal teapot currently at auction. I did not see “blauer Löwe zügelloser Gütestempel” or equivalent in the description, so I don’t cite this as hallmark evidence, but rather, as evidence of style. (Please don’t rely on my German – it’s hilariously bad.)
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/teekanne,-frankenthal,-um-1756-58,-0-c-0551759e55
I think you might perhaps also find a Frankenthal hallmark with a “u” signature on the artfact.com website, but I’m not sure if that’s where I found it. (Sorry, I am sick.)
3.) Eddie, thanks much for the new photos. Yes, your photos and verbal witness provide a good description of the piece. Here’s what “OldAndSold” has to say about the body, glaze, and the excellence of decoration in the original Frankenthal (1755-1795) concern.
THE BODY. The body at first shewed a slightly greyish tinge, but the paste was soon brought to a state of technical perfection in its whiteness and in all the other qualities that enter into the question.
THE GLAZE. The glaze likewise was technically perfect and of brilliant quality.
TYPES OF DECORATION. Both the painted decoration and the gilding were of exceptionally fine character, and there was a remarkably full palette of colors in use. A deep royal blue ground color, in imitation of the Sevres bleu du roi, was highly favoured, and raised gilding, in the manner of Vienna, was successfully executed….
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles/article306.shtml
4.) Does anyone feel that they can render an opinion on the painterly excellence of the artist who decorated Eddie’s teapot? I see what I tentatively and humbly call some ‘blobs’ or ‘bleeding’ in the blue design. I have no expertise whatsoever in this style of decoration however, so I shouldn’t care to venture an opinion here.
5.) I now find the handle crisp, but I must trust you on the glazing on the spout. (Very hard to photograph these shiny objects, isn’t it?)
6.) I am thrilled to hear about this staggered ribbing in Thuringian works. Could you please provide us with a book reference or a link so that we may study it and learn?
7.) I’m afraid I don’t follow you, Eddie on the fans near bottom. Are you referring to the painted design? I see painted fans, but I do not see any ‘scalloped shells’ fan ribbing near the bottom – all I see is the same even pattern of a band of ribbing.
8.) As an aside, here’s a Belleek Limpet pattern teapot with interesting ‘staggered-by-stacking’ ribbing. One of Belleek’s old patterns might feature a ring of scallop shells across the bottom of its teapot, but I can’t now find right now.
http://www.antiqueszone.co.uk/zone6/belleeklimpetteapot.html
9.) I’m afraid that I don’t follow you on the “paint” you removed, Eddie.
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge about this beautiful teapot! I hope that your Saturday is splendid. : )
As to the decoration of pot: I'd call it 'industrial'. It imitates the Chinese blue on white which gave us 'flow blue'. The design is well conceived and placed on the surfaces of the pot. The painter has dealt well with the 'problem' of the ribbing and has skilfully used his/her brush-strokes to create light and shade in the pattern. The calligraphic skill involved in the creation of the lion mark is in itself is amazing. The detail on the spout and on the handle/finial of the lid is really nice. I love the twelve semicircles around the lid's handle. It's restrained and elegant!
circles aroud the edge of the finial.
Thank you very much, Vetraio! I do love this teapot, but I wondered if the skill level on the pot might not be up to Frankenthal's standard when I saw the 'blobs/runs' in new photo no. 3. I value your judgment. I also agree that the lion is rendered with great skill and artistic vision.
I know what you mean miKKo! The Frankenthal painters were fabulous painters.
This one has a nice mark of the Prince/Elector too.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6504314
The Met museum has this fluted cup and saucer in this patter for comparison. I'd say it's a different quality, no?
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/120024587?rpp=60&pg=1&rndkey=20121020&ft=*&what=Dishes&who=Frankenthal+Porcelain+Manufactory&pos=13
Hello all,
Thank you vetraio50, I think my personal library of marks which is very very small is larger than our local library which does not exist :) I will have to order some books from the library or start up my membership to marks something or other which is actually a very good site. Though kovels recently sent me an email flyer re their new marks library which looks promising. Or my last option stop purchasing things simply because I like them, and I won't have to worry about marks. The last will not happen :)
miKKo, what I mean by half fans or shells. As for the paint.... I am referring to specks of paint that land on little treasures left uncovered when one paints a room. It appears this little teapot was the victim of a paint job where no tarp was used. The bright natural light brought them out as they are near imposible to see in lamp light, and I was removing them as I spotted them while taking the newer pics.
The website is http://www.porcelainbiz.com/thuringia.htm this dealer has alot of German porcelain, and is the same site the Kassell piece is located.
I tried the Artfact site, but will only allow me to view the 1st image.
There is also another company by the name of Ansbach which I have seen has a lion rampant, but it appears to be a little hairier about the legs. It was at the Harvard Art Museums site.
http://www.harvardartmuseums.org/art/
Thank you for your help, the info is much appreciated and in the process I am learning more which is always a good thing.
I hope you are feeling better, miKKo.
Eddie
vetraio50, thank you for the Met link. I just took a look at the pairing. If you look at the cup the line which should go straight down is quite off center. Also if you look at the center flower there are darker areas which I guess one could call blobs or runs. On the saucers panels the 3 lines end at a darker area that looks like a U, all three are different in size, color and quality. I am pretty sure that when it came to a repetive pattern as much as they would want it to be precise the costs of passing on a piece with a darker area would be astronomical. Once again on the Met pairing both the saucer and the cup have dark blue blobs. I think that is simply part of painting on fluted ground. I do agree that the decorators at Frankenthal were masters when it came to fruits, flowers, figures which were applied to one of a kind which pieces. As for the blue tint, I have seen that on other patterns such as blue onion by Meissen, it occurs when the paint is applied and the paste is still too wet. It then bleeds more than normally. I am not conviced it is not to the quality fo Frankenthal, but if compared to the Met pairing in my humble opinion the teapots decoration is better. Mind you it would make for a better comparison if the pairing were in color.
Still not 100% sure, but more and more I think Farenthal, without a doubt in my mind German.
miKKo please let me know if the auction house sends the pic.
Thank you all. I will keep lookin.
lol I mean Frankenthal.. thoughts faster than fingers
Eddie
I found another drawn example on a PDF book from 1919, page 36. It is an interesting book with lots of old marks. PFD form is easy to use though other options like Kindle are available.
http://archive.org/details/handbookofmarkso00burtuoft
Eddie
your very welcome Eddie:)
Hi, all!
Great links! Vetraio and Eddie, you provided great evidence here. Thank you!
You're very welcome, Eddie! Thank you much for your kind wishes. : )
I think that perhaps one has to sign up for artfact.com before one can open the hallmark photo. (Membership is free.) I assure you that I was able to open it. I saw the lion. It was very small, but one might well be able to enlarge and enhance it. I don't see the Ansbach lion hallmark on the Harvard website. Perhaps its in a different area, or perhaps I have to enroll in the website to open it?
I still don't understand about the fans, sorry, but that's OK. I might understand later. As for the link to porcelainbiz.com, thank you heartily! Wonderful site, and I see what you mean.
Excellent analysis of the painting on this beautiful teapot, gentlemen! Eddie, with this new evidence in hand, I can say that I see nothing yet to indicate that your teapot is not Frankenthal, and many things to indicate that Frankenthal is an excellent hypothesis. Bravo to you both! Goodnight, miKKo
Hi, all! REF p. 36 of the hallmark book in archive.org: Does anyone think that perhaps Eddie's "U" could really a "C"? Thanks!
Hello miKKo, I have thought about the U being a C, but I then ask why the period (.) would be placed at such an odd loction for that to be. Given that I feel it is a U.
I was able to locate 3 lion rampant marks on three different pieces. Here are the links as I found them. They are at the site where vetraio50 first found the Kassell and miKKo you viewed the Thuringia porcelains. They are below.
Early Plate http://www.porcelainbiz.com/porcelain/frankenthalearlyplate1.htm (somewhat similar, but a little blurry and smaller than the one below)
Early Floral Plate http://www.porcelainbiz.com/porcelain/frankenthallionplate2.htm (this one I feel is the closest to the teapot especially if the crown is moved over)
Last one on this page is on a Charger, http://www.porcelainbiz.com/porcelain/frankenthalcharger1.htm A little blurry, the tail is very much in keeping with the teapot, the rest I found too blurry to really compare.
I started laughing that not any two were an exact match, but did find all three had similarities to each other and to the teapot. Everyone is different, but they are all Frankenthal.
In the process of searching I found another very cool antique book on marks I thought ya'll might enjoy. It is from the Library at the University of Toronto by W.H.. Hooper and W. C. Phillips first published in 1876 the link is for the updated version of 1894. Below is the link. Oh yes it also has a very nice search, just enter the name then enter and search the whole book of 288 pages in literally seconds. Here is the link. http://www.ceramic-link.de/icd/pages/books/ebooks/William_Hopper_1894.html If you get a notice of not "Insufficient Data For Image" for Adobe simply close it, the book can be viewed using the sites reader. I was able to view the book without any issues.
vetraio50 and miKKo, once again thank you for all the help, you both have been extremely generous with time and effort. It is appreciated. Hopefully the mystery will be solved.
Eddie
Hi, all! You're most welcome, Eddie! I bookmarked the link. Thanks. Yes, I see the tongue now. If you are going to insure this, I recommend that you have this professionally appraised. Thanks for posting this beautiful item, and for the great discussion, which I greatly enjoyed!
Good morning, Eddie. I just received a generous response from an antiques
dealer in Germany. He has sent me a very clear image of the Frankenthal blue underglaze lion rampant mark. I can forward the email to you if you like. : )
Hello miKKO that would be great. How does one do that on here? I guess it would be via email?
Eddie
Hi, Eddie! No problem! Looks like it worked this time, so you can delete your email address now. : )
Thank you very much miKKo, I really appreciate all the trouble you went through. I must say there are strong similarities. I wonder since the mark was hand painted and this is the 4th different lion with Frankenthal attribution if they might have decorator marks listed. I need to get an expert to look at this piece. In person would be best, but Ihave sent items to Skinners, Sothebys and Christies.. Once again thanks so so much.
Eddie
You're most welcome, Eddie! Glad that you are having it professionally appraised. It would be most difficult to replace if it broke. : ( Best wishes! miKKo
Will be in contact soon, hopefully with great news. Have a wonderful evening.
Eddie
I hope I get a chance to look at them too!
Thanks, Eddie! I look forward to it. You, too. : )
Hi, Vetraio! If you like, I'll send them to you, too. I don't want to post them myself as I haven't a clue how to enhance or enlarge them.
Thanks miKKo! Mission accomplished!
Could you remove that email for me Eddie?
Hi, Vetraio. Did you get both vendor emails stacked - one from Henrik and one from Sabine, or two separate emails? This stacking feature that descended upon my email account last week is driving me mad. Thanks.
Hi miKKo. I just got one from H.`s A GmbH. I didn't get Sabine's.
Hi, Vetraio! Thanks! I'll sort out the the stacking later. Sorry about that. : (
i am now complete. Thanks for that! They like the pot?
I think it s so small it sould be called a "one cuppa"!
Hi, Vetraio! I sent the email straight away. If you don't get results shortly, you might want to email CW the request, too, as it is very late in Eddie's neck of the woods.
I was upfront with the vendors about why I wanted the mark photos, and since I wasn't buying, I didn't ask them to look at Eddie's teapot. Cuppa? Did Meissen or Frankenthal have the 'Bachelor' pots? Tea was rather dear when this pot was presumably made, so perhaps the cups were very small, too.
Hi Not sure at all about that. Will look into it.
Many thanks Eddie!
Hi vetraio50 and miKKo... lol vetraio50 I am a little lost on the email deletion. Did I forget to do something?
I like the one cuppa comment, they were smaller back then as tea was a luxury and kept under lock and key. I have seen 2 cup pots, but still like the the one cuppa... Got an email ready to go, having Lee proof read before sending.
Eddie
Thank you inky and chinablue! :)
Vetraio & Mikko,
My apologies for being gone so long, but finally I was able to find the info in images. The lion is indeed that of Frankenthal as is the decoration of the strawflower. I am still not sure what the U. is all about. The MET has a very nice example which fits perfectly with the decoration on the teapot including both blobs/runs which Mikko was concerned about. I was also able to find a couple of lion marks with the crown being more to the front of the face than above the head. The legs and tail were done in the same manner as in the teapot mark, and lastly the footed rim is identical to a teapot decorated with a couple of men sitting and having a drink. That teapot also has a similar lion with no CT, AB or incisednumbers.
You two were so generous with both time and research I wanted to thank you, and if I am correct Vetraio you thought the road was towards Frankenthal pretty early.
Thanks again for all your help.
Eddie
Hi Eddie I remember it and discombobulated ' musselmalet' so well.
A 'cause célèbre'!
I'll let miKKo know too if one doesn't see this!
Hi Vetraio....
lol Yes discombobulated too. I was not sure how to take that at first, but late hours make one need a good laugh and not take one so seriously.
Wanted to check and see if you or Mikko might b around and... glad you got my thank you, and please do let Mikko know should you get the chance.
Eddie
Greetings, kulektor and vetraio! May this find you well and filled with joy. Thank you kulektor, very much, for your very fine and generous message!! It was a pleasure to assist you with your beautiful teapot. Your very keen and diligent research was superb and inspiring!!! Congratulations!
Oh, yes, that vetraio is a most dangerous scholar and asthete! We all take delight in his researches, and learn from him at almost every encounter. Thanks much, vetraio, for your kind offer to convey kulektor's warm good wishes!!! : )
Best wishes!!! : )
Hi miKKo, glad you found the comments.
Hope you are well!
lol Mikko, that he is. Wha a fine mind to have on ones side in such matters.
Very glad you found the message. Hope all is well on your end.
Thank you for everything.
Eddie
Thank you Moonstonelover... Is your love of moonstone the glass or the stone?
Hi, vetraio and kulektor! Yes, thank you very much, I am well and up to mischief. Hope all is well on your end, too! : )
Interestingly enough, vetraio, I just spoke this afternoon with a descendant of what was once the largest silver firm in Germany - before WWII and for at least part of WWII. After the war, the Russians occupied the area in which the firm was located, and it was of course much altered under Communist rule. As soon as I learn anything more re BHock's silver beaker, I'll let you know. Auf wiedersehen! : )
Mikko & Vetraio,
If you two have a chance check out a teapot at the V&A webste Frankenthal section. I believe it is the first image on page 3. I was searching for a mark for Ansbach when I saw they had quite the collection with very nice images on various porcelain companies. For the heck of it went to their Frankenthal section and sure enough they have a very similar teapot. Let me know what you think if you get a chance to view.
thanks,
Eddie
Thank you Woman34 & bratjdd :)