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R. & G. White Etching - JOHANNES HARRIS D.D. Regia Societatis Socius - Ætal. Sua' 40. - c. 1706

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    Posted 6 years ago

    BHock45
    (807 items)

    This is strange. I am going to research this tonight, but I figured I would share the fun with you all...

    I stopped at the local junker today to see if there was anything new in this week. I came across this old etching. It was only a few dollars, so I took a chance. Looks like an early 18th century etching of some guy John Harris. I was able to find some info in a quick internet search, but there is something strange. Here is what I came up with:

    https://pictures.royalsociety.org/image-rs-1656

    http://www.grosvenorprints.com/stock_detail.php?ref=26995

    If you look at these closely, they are essentially the same, but mine is slightly different. It says "Johannes Harris D.D." instead of "Johannes Harris A.M." Also mine reads, "Ætal. Sua' 40," whereas the two found online say, "Ætal. Sua' 37."

    I took mine out of the frame, there is a strange marking on the back. Looks to be written with an old fountain pen. In pencil at the bottom there are two numbers "112 and 11."

    I guess the questions I am trying to answer are:

    When is this etching from?
    Why is my etching different than those on the web?

    I will report back, if you have any thoughts please share. Thanks all!

    Mystery Solved
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    Comments

    1. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      "Ætal. Sua' 40 should read '"Ætat. Suae' 40'"

      His age was 40 or 37 in the other two cases.

      The two with a different age suggest a printing date of 1704. and c.1704.


      Are the dimensions generally the same?
      Dimensions
      height (print): 267mm
      width (print): 168mm
    2. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      I suppose it is good that it is different to those being sold by the Society.
      http://prints.royalsociety.org/art/580843/portrait-of-john-harris-1661-1719
    3. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      vetraio, thanks for the info. Yes, the dimensions are the same as suggested. I am guessing the society is selling copies of the etching, not the original printing. It looks like you can have it made in different sizes.

      Do you know what the "D.D. or the A.M. stands for?"

      I am guessing they printed these over the course of several years. During that time perhaps his title/degree changed as well as his age?
    4. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      Interesting that it is signed by g. white, and r. white. Both are listed as engravers on the society page. It looks like the were father and son:

      https://books.google.com/books?id=7vn2sxjoRiYC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=george+white+etchings&source=bl&ots=wT9JW8GlM5&sig=B_EjbW6UpAT4WblrWNsjX2gXCkI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjifeqltXJAhXBqh4KHfJhDbYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=george%20white%20etchings&f=false
    5. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      I believe the D. D. refers to a Doctor of Divinity. A university degree.

      This one in San Francisco is entitled J.J D.D. Like yours:
      https://art.famsf.org/george-white/portrait-johannes-harris-am-age-37-195545891

      It also has the age as being 40 !!!!
    6. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      I think this is a later version of the print.

      The question has been discussed before .... in

      pp. 207-208 of this text:
      http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/2/24/homecountiesmaga07londuoft/homecountiesmaga07londuoft.pdf

      According to it he became a Doctor of Divinity in 1706 and died in 1719.

      He was a chaplain to to the Lord High-Chancellor of Great-Britain.
      http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n82136791.html
    7. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      The earlier version is that with A.M.

      A Master of Arts or in Latin 'artium magister, abbreviated A.M., or AM'
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts
    8. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      There's an interesting and early biography here on page 620:
      https://books.google.com.au/books?id=W5BCAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA620&lpg=PA620&dq=prebend+Stall++Rochester+%22harris%22&source=bl&ots=vYvv2qEeiF&sig=Fu04hMhxgtDp-CF6sdM-ngjqMeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiiuvWXo9XJAhXIipQKHRl0AnkQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&q=prebend%20Stall%20%20Rochester%20%22harris%22&f=false
    9. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      But I suspect this is the best bio:
      http://galileo.rice.edu/Catalog/NewFiles/harris.html
    10. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      Harris was Chaplain to Sir William Cowper, later Lord Cowper, Keeper of the Great Seal - Lord High-Chancellor of Great-Britain. This position was significant to his career.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cowper,_1st_Earl_Cowper
    11. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      "Despite all that patronage, he was destitute in his final years."
    12. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      amazing, thank you vetraio for your hard work and help. Have a great day!
    13. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      It is very interesting that the fine arts museum of san Francisco also has a copy of the one I have. They too are unsure of the date.
    14. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      fyi vetraio, I have been making that bay leaf chicken recipe you taught me years ago. It is delicious, going to make it again for the holidays.
    15. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      Thanks again mate ... I still do it here each week too !! Glad you like it. As regards the print ... The DD gives the date. The SF museum are unaware of the 1706 date of his doctorate. It also then with the age gives a birthdate of 1666 or 1667. There's little info about his early days it seems. I'd even think that the correction would have happened quite quickly after his doctorate.
    16. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      do you agree this is a print from 18th century england? Then I will mark it solved.
    17. vetraio50 vetraio50, 6 years ago
      I reckon you could date it to c.1706 .... looks good to me.
    18. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      Thanks to violet, antique, jscott, fort, brunswick, sean and mikelv for the loves
    19. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 6 years ago
      i really like these old prints. they were very valuable before 1915/20 or so. museums purchased many of the best quality ones up until around that time when they lost popularity and have never really regained it. i think it's around the time that 4 color printing became widely used. not sure of all the details though. i really enjoy the early prints i have here: http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/124814-la-cuisinire-hollandoise-print-jean

      and here:
      http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/124846-tricoteuse-hollandoise-jean-georges-wil
    20. BHock45 BHock45, 6 years ago
      ho2cultcha...I really enjoy them too. Amazing....like pointillism. I wonder what the market is like for them now. Probably not that great. I think the guy had a few more in frames, I am going to see if he still has them later today. Thanks for commenting.
    21. inky inky, 6 years ago
      Merry ChristmasBHock45, may you and yours have a wonderful one!..:-)

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