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Large Mystery Cameo " Parfum La’Gutierre, Paris 1832"

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    Posted 3 years ago

    freiheit
    (1142 items)

    I really need your help with this cameo. My husband bought it for me in antique store. There was no information with the piece. Here is what I think (I could be completely wrong):
    1. The cameo is very large; it’s 2.75 inches.
    2. Based on the back, I believe it could be a vintage item, possibly dating as early as the 1930’s.
    3. I saw two similar ones on line, stating that the material is gutta percha, however, most of the images of jewelry made of this material seems to be brown or black. It might be some kind of plastic.
    4. The back stamp “ Parfum La’Gutierre, Paris 1832” seems to be misleading, fake, or made for an anniversary.
    5. I think the item could be a promotional or advertising piece.
    6. It could also be a total fake, although the frame, marked 925, is real silver.

    Please help me out with this item. I like it no matter what.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks for looking:)

    Unsolved Mystery

    Help us close this case. Add your knowledge below.

    Comments

    1. antiquerose antiquerose, 3 years ago
      Stunning !!!!!!!!!!!


      I do not think it is Gutta Percha as I have a GP brooch here seen by an antique appraser and this is what I know GP to look like

      http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/118221-gutta-percha-victorian-brooch-mourning

      Yours looks to be Amber -- carved. I think you may have something VERY special there !!!
    2. antiquerose antiquerose, 3 years ago
      ??? Could it be Amber ( or Baltic Amber ) ?? I am just guessing here.....

      http://jewelfairy.biz/amber/baltic_amber.htm
    3. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 3 years ago
      Very pretty! Something that should be right up kyratango's alley. I did an image search and found nothing. I think it's an advertising piece which dates to much later than the 1930s - not earlier than the late 1950s.
    4. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Thanks so much for trying to help me with this mystery, Efesgirl and antiquerose.
      I don't think is amber although it has the glow of it, especially on the back. But you are correct, antiquerose, it doesn't look like gutta percha either.
      Efesgirl, I found one just like it but with garnets, instead of pearls. I have to try find it again; I didn't save it, darn!
    5. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 3 years ago
      Oh! I didn't see that one....
    6. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      I found this one: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/354588170641725794/
    7. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      I am not sure if this is the same: https://www.etsy.com/listing/288924345/huge-brooch-gutta-percha-bohemian-garnet (mine is a bit different in the back/not open)
      I am just saying: Only because someone says it is gutta percha, it doesn't have to be correct - LOL
    8. antiquerose antiquerose, 3 years ago
      So true!! Just because another post says theirs is Gutta Percha, does not mean it is.

      I was under the impression from the Antique appraiser I saw that Gutta Percha is also know as......... JET BLACK or MOURNING JEWELRY as it is Black. Plus she did some test on mine to confirm mine was Gutta percha.


      For my Brooch ( Just a FYI) I have written appraisal/value/info from the Lady as I had paid to have it done. It was like a mini antique Roadshow. OR,,,,,,,maybe she was all wrong...............LOL............
    9. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 3 years ago
      Yes, the two links were to the same brooch. I found this, I hope it's helpful with identifying your brooch "substance":

      http://jewelrynerd.org/blog/what-are-gutta-percha-bog-oak-jet-and-vulcanite-jewelry-and-how-do-i-identify-them

      "Gutta percha is light sensitive and has a tendency to turn brown with exposure to light (and oxygen) over the years. Most of the gutta percha jewelry seen today is brown and not black like it was originally. The color is a clue to its material nature. Gutta percha is also molded, not carved, so there won’t be any visible tool marks on the piece. Since it’s basically a rubber-like material, it will smell like rubber when it’s rubbed briskly on fabric. And the most effective way to tell if your jewelry is gutta percha- TASTE IT. Seriously. Please wash it before and after tasting it and in fact, taste it at your own risk. But if you choose to taste it, it will taste salty. If it doesn’t taste salty, it’s not gutta percha."
    10. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Antiquerose, your brooch is beautiful and based on some of the pictures I have seen it looks just perfect for an item made of gutta percha.
    11. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Efesgirl, thanks for the link. It was really informative. Now I will go and have a lick - LOL
    12. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 3 years ago
      Hahahaha! Let me know how it tastes.
    13. antiquerose antiquerose, 3 years ago
      < ...Drum Roll.... > and it Tastes like _ _ _ _ ?
    14. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Well, it doesn't!!!
      It has a smell, a very faint smell, but I have no clue what it reminds me of.
      So I guess for the time being it remains a mystery. I do like a mystery but I like solving it even better!
    15. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 3 years ago
      From what I gather, there is the wood & there is a "latex" from the wood that is, of course different. It seemed like this party was slowing down a bit, so I thought I would add a drop or 2 of catalyst. LOL !! I really love the hues, whatever it is .
    16. AmatoorPikr, 3 years ago
      ...then,...you may find this interesting BB2.........

      "Gutta-percha was first introduced by a Connecticut dentist, Dr. Asa Hill, in
      1847, as an option for a plastic restorative material. He mixed it with carbonate of
      lime and quartz and called it “Hill’s stopping”. In 1867, Dr. G.A. Bowman claimed
      that he used gutta-percha to fill canals in a first molar (Gatewood 2007).

      Gutta-percha is produced from rubber trees that are native to Malaysia,
      Borneo, Indonesia and Brazil. Gutta-percha is the trans isomer of polyisoprene,
      C5H8 (rubber). It exists in two crystalline forms, ? and ?. Raw gutta-percha comes in ? form, and commercially manufactured gutta-percha points exist in ?
      crystalline form.

      The mechanical properties of the two different forms are the same;
      however, there are some thermal and volumetric differences (Goodman et al.
      1974). When gutta-percha is in solid ? form, it’s easy compactable. When guttapercha in ? form is heated above 46oC, it changes to ? phase and becomes
      pliable and can be made to flow.

      This is very useful when thermoplastic techniques are utilized."
    17. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 3 years ago
      I don't know what to say Pikr ! Think you said it all ! LOL !!
    18. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      This is all so interesting! Blunderbuss2, thanks for your drops of catalyst:)
      Amatoorpkr, thanks for the information. It's greatly appreciated!
    19. cameosleuth cameosleuth, 3 years ago
      Think your other correspondents have found these 2 already:

      https://www.pinterest.com/pin/354588170641725794/

      http://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/Huge-Antique-Silver-Garnet-set-Cameo-Brooch-/161365679192

      The name on the back is Parfum La Gatierre.

      It is difficult to be sure, but in some of the photos these pieces appear to be slightly translucent, which I believe would rule out gutta percha. Also, to the best of my knowledge, gutta percha has not really been used since the advent of polymers/resin & think this is a vintage but still fairly modern piece.
    20. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 3 years ago
      Well, this is all very interesting! Cameosleuth has got me thinking that this could be an artificial resin rather than a natural material which has been reworked.
    21. kyratango kyratango, 3 years ago
      I found the same Etsy one, and another in Deutsch language, whic I guess isn't hard to read for you ;-)

      http://www.goettgen.de/schmuck-foren/ftopic21190.html

      They say around 1900/1920 (rather 1920 IMO), and not gutta percha
    22. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Thanks s much for your comment/information, cameosleuth. I don't think that my cameo is translucent. It appears almost as if it was made of two different materials. The back looks almost like faux tortoise shell. The front looks more like faux coral. I tested the back for Bakelite, but it was negative. I didn't want to put anything on the front because I didn't want to damage it.

      I also think that the cameo is not an antique piece because of the style of the lady's face and the sterling marking (925) and the mechanism. (I wonder where some of the sellers got that idea from)

      Looking at the closure on the back and comparing it with known examples, I concluded that it might be from the around the 1930's, but, of course, I could be wrong.

      I also thought that it was possible that the cameo was made as a 100 year business anniversary or promotional item. It refers to 1832, therefore 1932 would be about right.

      Having said all of that, there is always the possibility that someone, lets say in the 1960/1970's or so, made this cameo to look like it was old. That would not surprise me either.

      I am wearing it today and must say that it is certainly a conversation piece. Also, my husband paid a fraction of what the sellers are asking, so I don't feel bad no matter what... LOL
    23. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Kyratango, your comment came while I was typing. I am a very slow typist LOL.
      In that link they mention that the cameo might be issued for the release of a new fragrance. That makes sense to me because the lady seems to be in a garden, surrounded by flowers and birds. I wonder were the idea of it being gutta percha started!!! They also think that it might have been mass produced in around the 1920's. I am not sure about the age but I agree that the setting is very detailed and fine. I suppose that I will get to the bottom of it, eventually:)
    24. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      I forgot to say thanks for the link, kayratango:)
    25. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 3 years ago
      I don't care if it's a petroleum product. I like the design & tones. Now, can somebody point me toward the exit. I seem to be trapped in CW.
    26. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 3 years ago
      bb2 - it is quite a striking piece, whatever it's made out of! :-))))
    27. valentino97 valentino97, 3 years ago
      I've enjoyed all these posts, I still don't have a clue. Not an item I have seen. Love it!
    28. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Mary, You are so correct! I feel the same.
      Blunderbuss2, I agree with you too!
      And yes, Efesgirl, whatever it is made of it doesn't matter much. It looks interesting....
    29. cameosleuth cameosleuth, 3 years ago
      I completely agree that if you are pleased by the piece, it does not matter very much, if at all, what it is made of. And your husband wanted you to have something beautiful & interesting, something even more valuable.

      Now, to me the new mystery is why searching for the name of the perfum really only turns up examples of this brooch, not any actual perfume? Anyone out there who reads Russian?
      http://www.antiqtorg.com/
      Is it possible there was no such parfumerie? That this was a brand name, the way there is the contemporary maker who tags their pieces 1928, the name of the company, nothing to do with the year of manufacture?
      http://www.1928.com/

      The mystery continues.
    30. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Cameosleuth, thank you for your kind remarks. You really put in words how I feel about the issue.
      As for the mystery, I tried really hard to translate the words in the Russian link but other than the obvious words, I couldn't figure out anything:(
      I searched the perfume too, but nothing came up either. Could it have been a completely irrelevant perfumery or just an imaginary name? Like you said, it is rather possible that there was no such maker. What puzzles me is that the only thing ever coming up is the brooch, no other pieces.
      There is, however, the possibility that this piece was made by a joker willing to confuse everyone. If this is the case, he/she did a good job - LOL
    31. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      Cameosleuth, I put the Russian text into a translator and this is what I got (I don't think it helps solving the mystery - LOL):

      "Socket 925 silver , amber ( grenades ? ) . On the back of the stamp «PARFUM LA

      GATIERRE PARIS 1832 " . " 925 " is also a stigma on the rim . Subject bears traces of use .

      Manufacturing France. The first half of the 19th century."

      By the way, I think there is some confusion between the term "19th century and the 1900's :)

      Gudrun
    32. cameosleuth cameosleuth, 3 years ago
      Guessing socket = setting & stigma = mark Think Russian site succumbing to the natural temptation to see a piece as being of the higher quality it is imitating rather than seeing it for what it really is.
      If they are saying it is 19th century because 1832 appears on the back, they are ignoring the later date, or, as you say, confusing 19th century with the 1900s. As for amber, we have found a handful of identical pieces, indicating molded mass production.
      It seems very reasonable to suppose this was issued in, or soon after, 1932, as a commemorative item; just very odd not to be able to catch a whiff of the parfumerie. Google keeps suggesting that I am really searching for gateau - cake!
    33. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      I totally agree with you, cameosleuth.
      It's interesting for me to see that the item turned up on a German site, a Russian one, I also believe a listing from either the US or another English speaking place, and mine was sold in Canada.
      Maybe the suggestion should have been "cadeau" (gift), meaning it was a promotional item???
    34. cameosleuth cameosleuth, 3 years ago
      Google thinks I want a gaterie (circumflex on the A), a French cake shop.

      Here we go again:

      http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sterling-silver-cameo-pin-victorian-paris-1832

      It astounds me that people would sell & buy an item with the dates 1832-1932 on it, & believe it was Victorian because of the earlier date, completely ignoring the one 100 years later. And just to be persnickety, Victoria's reign began in 1837, so they are not even correctly misidentifying it.

      Although I don't think Google is confusing gateau with cadeau, that it was a promotional item & possibly one given away to customers seems a strong possibility. If Parfum La Gatierre were the brand name for a jewelry maker, think we would turn up other pieces with other designs, not just this one.

      She is very fetching. Surprised I had not seen her before.
    35. freiheit freiheit, 3 years ago
      I agree with you, again!
      Don't you think it's strange, too, when people call something antique when the item is vintage or just plain and simple old!
      Anyway, I truly appreciate your input.
      Thanks,
      Gudrun
    36. cameosleuth cameosleuth, 2 years ago
      It has been a while since we did our best with this piece. Another has turned up on eBay & seller contributes some further info, although without stating source(s):

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/252783152429

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