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European, Not American Production – And Absolutely Not Consolidated – Real Facts

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famatta127's loves5 of 1407Small Loetz Astraea Egg form vaseLoetz PG 829 (or "like" PG 829), PPN II-187
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    Posted 6 months ago

    welzebub
    (46 items)

    First of all, let me be clear. I do not really care who made this vase…. Whether it is European or American is of no real concern to me. What I do care about, and always have, is presenting information in public forums which is accurate and supportable. Information which will not pollute the knowledge of those who come here to read and learn. If you do not agree with my assessment of this production, feel free to voice that opinion, knowing that if you do I will challenge you to provide something (anything) to support differing claims.

    I have a friend who owns this vase, and she was kind enough to let me use images of her example to post some actual facts about the glass and it’s origins.

    She has owned this vase for quite a few years, and was informed that it was European production very early on. The region of origin has been determined, but the actual production house has never been identified. I only say this because there is an example of this vase posted in this forum under American Glass with the inference that it is production by the firm of Consolidated….. That is what the seller apparently said…… and we all know that sellers never say things that are not true. LOL

    Upon seeing an example of this vase in the forum posted with inaccurate information, I asked a friend of mine who is a respected and recognized authority on the subject of Phoenix and Consolidated glass, and received the following reply:

    “Craig, this vase is neither by Consolidated nor by Phoenix. Consolidated made no cased green glass in non-lighting form. They did make a huge amount of the cased dark green “banker” shades but that is it as far as I know.”

    I was pretty sure of what his reply would be, but I always prefer to double check facts before stating them in a public forum where people try to learn… especially if the glass does not fall in one of my areas of specialty. This practice holds true for all of the categories of objects and art I collect. I for one, and I know many here agree with me, feel that posting false or misleading information, and leaving it intentionally to “prove some point”, is not only disrespectful to those trying to learn, but it also pollutes the knowledge base for those who do not know better. To me at least, there is no justifiable reason to do so….. but that’s just me, and I certainly can not speak for those that do it. Maybe there is some rational reason that just escapes me….

    I am, and always have been of the opinion that “Facts are simply that, Facts”. It reminds me of a meme you see often.

    “Just because you choose to not believe it, does not mean that science is wrong.”

    So the vase in question is a vase that has been accepted for quite a while now, to be European production. It is seen in a variety of colors and shapes, none of which are even close to resembling the production of Consolidated Glass in America. I thought for a time that the production may be Czech, but after a time of looking at it, examples with a “Germany” provenance mark were seen occasionally.

    The vase in image 1 measures approx. 5 inches tall and 8 inches wide at the widest portion of the lower body. It has a ground and polished upper rim with a chamfered outer edge. The surface of the vase is satin, but the décor is also seen in other colors, and also in a glossy casing.

    Images 1 & 2 above are images of my friend’s vase.

    Image 3 above are other examples of this type of production.

    Image 4 above is an example of the acid stamp provenance mark found on some of this production.

    Feel free to comment, whether you agree or disagree.

    I can take the Heat, So I do not Delete!!!

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    Comments

    1. welzebub, 6 months ago
      Heat from you... please make me laugh some more.

      Here is the rest of what I said, so that your partial and self serving quote is put in perspective.

      "What I do care about, and always have, is presenting information in public forums which is accurate and supportable. Information which will not pollute the knowledge of those who come here to read and learn."

      The bad information I am responding to that your "new friend" will likely not change says this:

      "A revelation about glass made in America during Victorian years pre 1900. Consolidated?"

      So do I care who made it? Not really, but the maker is unknown.
      Do I care that someone is misrepresenting it, as she does with lots of other glass here? Yes.

      Thanks for the comment though.... I look forward to your interacting with me in the future should you choose to.

      And I am curious, do you have some evidence that supports her claim of American and possibly Consolidated? Or evidence that shows my facts to be in error. If you have that, feel free to add it. If not, you seem to be trying to start an argument you are ill equipped to finish.

      If your intention is simply to try and insult me, much more qualified folks than you have actually tried to do that for years now. :-)
    2. scottvez scottvez, 6 months ago
      Compelling case presented on German origin.

      scott
    3. welzebub, 6 months ago
      I said the glass is European. It is found with Germany stamped on the underside. That precludes it from being American. A recognized and respected expert in the field of Consolidated and Phoenix glass stated it is not their work. That fact would be easy for anyone to verify if they were actually interested in facts.

      So it is not American glass, and not Consolidated or Phoenix.
      I stated the maker is not known, but the region from which it originates is.

      I don't see you presenting anything which negates or disputes those facts.
      Do you actually have a point?
    4. welzebub, 6 months ago
      TheGallery says: "I am very surprise that you think that no other company could be produce this kind of glass in this same colour and shape, it's happen with many others big glass company for century."

      All I actually said, is that it is NOT American, and it is NOT Consolidated. I also said the Maker is not known, so I am not exactly sure what it is you are reading, but it is apparently not this post.
    5. scottvez scottvez, 6 months ago
      "I am very surprise that you think that no other company could be produce this kind of glass in this same colour and shape, it's happen with many others big glass company for century."

      I find welzebub's posting informative and convincing, but I am open to contrary information.

      SHOW ME (and others).

      Do the research and show a vase of the same color (decor) and shape that has a documented US attribution.

      scott
    6. kivatinitz kivatinitz, 6 months ago
      thanks for this post always is great to rethink about evidence
    7. welzebub, 6 months ago
      Kivatinitz - You are certainly welcome. I just like to make sure that accurate information is posted about glass items in this forum. Apparently, not everyone feels that way.... which is unfortunate.
    8. Alan2310 Alan2310, 6 months ago
      I definitely not learn as much as I know today without your informative post and tip, keep them coming.
      Alan
    9. welzebub, 6 months ago
      Thank You Alan. I appreciate that. I am glad you find them helpful.
    10. welzebub, 6 months ago
      Thanks to all for stopping by my post.
    11. AnythingObscure AnythingObscure, 6 months ago
      Oh lawwdy, here we go again with this green thing. Thanks so much Kivatinitz, I definitely agree with your thought (and even welzebub's to a good degree) that the most important function of this forum (thus why we all show/tell our own favorite sorts of crap here) is/should be to help preserve as much accurate info as possible about any of it, for those that will come along behind any of the rest of us. :-) The presentation of such info, by any other random (or not) member/contributor/commenter only ADDS to the general knowledge base IMHO. Fussing and arguing amongst ourselves probably isn't quite so useful to the realm of 'history', but one way or the other is also its own strange way of adding to the collective 'historical record' I suppose. (?)

      For my own absolutely NOT EXPERT opinion, I'm still simply sorta wondering why all y'all keep calling this thing a "vase"...not only because its biggest/prettiest part seems to be on its bottom where it wouldn't ever be seen if used as such, also its relatively tiny top opening vs. its overall width which makes me wonder what the h*ll sorta 'flowers' one would display in it and how that might ever look right...?? Pics here in welzebub's 3rd pic might be similarly colored/etc, but DO look like they were glass pieces made/shaped to hold flower bouquets...?

      My simple (and once more unknowing in any way shape or form) thought when this thing popped up a few days ago was "lampshade" of some kind, even though absolutely nobody else so far seems to agree in any way, plus it does also lack several key features of one of those once I looked closer at it, mostly the lack of any sorta rim (and/or top edge wear, if the narrow part is indeed its 'top'?) that would have allowed it to be actually clamped to a light fixture whatever its top or bottom sides might have originally been intended to be displayed and how...?
    12. welzebub, 6 months ago
      Thank You for your thoughts AnythingObscure. The posting of accurate information, at least to me and many others, is the one of the most important functions of a forum like this. That, and the exposure to diverse collectibles...... I have believed that since day 1 of joining this forum. In many cases my posts have been informational to counter what I believe to be bad information in the forum. I simply think of the old Point-Counterpoint.... Offer a differing opinion and let folks read it all and decide for themselves.....

      Your observation about the rim is one I agree with, in that there would be no way for a fitter to hold on to the glass. (We also collecting antique and vintage lighting)

      Examples like this glass are simply referred to as a "vase", for lack of a better term. Some vases were functional, some vases were more decorative. For lack of better terms, they all just kind of get lumped together.

      And thanks again for your thoughts. Always appreciated. Discussion is in reality, one of the greatest things this community offers users, when it is allowed to occur by the folks that post.

    13. AnythingObscure AnythingObscure, 6 months ago
      /me smiling and agreeing 100% w/ welzebub's most recent. Thank you too, kind Sir.

      :-) :-) :-)
    14. welzebub, 6 months ago
      Thanks to everyone that stopped by my post, and also those that commented.
    15. scottvez scottvez, 6 months ago
      It is telling that no evidence of this decor and shape with a documented US attribution has been presented!

      scott
    16. MALKEY MALKEY, 6 months ago
      ummm malkey did presume from gaye paris
      as the omega man blue malkey dragon lady
      just had a hunch ////back ???? not of notramdarm though or maybe so
      eye feel like a bit of a nancy whats new there for blue
      which malkey does like in newcastle vault penthouse
      plenty of nancy glass art france
      super research back up craig my jolly good friend
      all the very best malkey
      but as always malkey wrong !!!!!!!!!!!
      5th april 2020 year 15.33 pm
    17. scottvez scottvez, 5 months ago
      A month of gallery silence speaks volumes!

      scott
    18. welzebub, 5 months ago
      Scott, It would appear that the bulk of the time her intention is to make an unsupported claim to appear to have a diversity of knowledge in the world of glass, and then employ far less "enthusiasm" about actually posting facts to support those claims..... I would actually be surprised if something different actually happened....
    19. kralik1928 kralik1928, 5 months ago
      https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/87791-cameo-vase

      German but I don’t know the maker. Mine is a cameo version of the same leaf decor
    20. welzebub, 5 months ago
      You might want to let Lisa know.... I have known for years.... but to her it is still American? and possibly Consolidated.... Horse... water.... drinking.... LOL

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