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White Sewing Machine (1800s?)

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    Posted 3 years ago

    Nikki45042
    (1 item)

    White Sewing Machine, do believe it's from the 1800's according to the serial number. Have the original tools and the thread, I'm guessing, may be super old/original? Any information about the machine would be awesome!

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    Comments

    1. Nikki45042 Nikki45042, 3 years ago
      I'm not sure why my pictures are sideways. Lol
    2. Gillian, 3 years ago
      https://www.collectorsweekly.com/answer-desk/photo-and-scanning-tips
    3. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Hi, Nikki45042. :-)

      I see that Gillian has already pointed you to the Collectors Weekly help file for posting pictures. This is the pertinent section:

      *snip*

      Rotate your photos. After the shoot, be sure to rotate your photos if needed so they appear right-side up. Images shot with a smartphone or tablet sometimes do not appear properly rotated on our site, so you may want to download photos to your computer first and then rotate them using your computer’s photo-editing software before uploading.

      *snip*

      https://www.collectorsweekly.com/answer-desk/photo-and-scanning-tips

      What isn't clear is that when the help file says "your computer," it probably means "your desktop computer."

      It is true that if you transfer your pictures to a desktop computer (e.g. a Windows computer), and edit them there before posting, they'll probably orient correctly here.

      I don't think that you need to change them per se, but merely open and save them on a desktop machine so that the file properties are changed for the local operating system.

      Of course, all this assumes that you have a desktop computer, and a lot of people don't nowadays.

      Anyway, the White machines that most closely resemble yours are seen here at the fiddlebase dot com website:

      https://www.fiddlebase.com/american-machines/white-sewing-machine-company/dating-identifying-white-sewing-machines/

      There is no single machine that looks exactly like yours, but overall, this one is probably the closest:

      https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=832x10000:format=jpg/path/s51e998845fd4a378/image/if0339108bce7c81d/version/1535790710/image.jpg

      But your bobbin winder looks more like this one:

      https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=834x10000:format=jpg/path/s51e998845fd4a378/image/ie805ccc34389e7e3/version/1536139441/image.jpg

      And I suspect that you might be using as the serial number the four digit number at the bottom of the rectangular plate at the juncture of the horizontal and vertical arms like that in the first picture.

      Could you please take a clear picture of what you're using as the serial number and add it to your post? Also, a clear picture of the engraved information on the slide plates. I don't care too much how the pictures are oriented, just so that they're sufficiently clear to read any embossed or engraved information. :-)
    4. Nikki45042 Nikki45042, 3 years ago
      Thanks for the info, this is all new to me. I did add a clear picture of the serial number and will add a picture of the slide plate as well. I appreciate all the help!
    5. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Nikki45042, Ah, thank you! :-)

      So, the serial number is in a little cartouche at the base of the pillar, a la vintage Singers. I read it as 1232129, and per fiddlebase dot com, that would put it into this range:

      *snip*

      1.210.000 ............................................

      1898

      1.270.000 ............................................

      1899

      *snip*

      https://www.fiddlebase.com/american-machines/white-sewing-machine-company/dating-identifying-white-sewing-machines/

      It's probably a VSII or VSIII (yours seems to have characteristics of each):

      http://needlebar.org/nbwiki/index.php/White#White_VSII

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sewing_Machine

      About the White VSIII, per possumjimandelizabeth dot com:

      *snip*

      Also, the VS III was quite long running as a model -- 1893 through 1928. The changes were minimal, mainly an upgraded bobbin winder and a different shuttle just after the turn of the century.

      White did not name these models other than to designate those following their initial offering as an "Improved White."

      The Serial Number is 1,407,729 suggesting a manufacture year of 1903. (During 1903 SNs 1,389,763 - 1,407,808 were produced.)

      Thanks to Katie Farmer, a White researcher, for these words and who refers to this particular machine as a White VS III.

      *snip*

      http://possumjimandelizabeth.com/xhtml/collect_sewing_white.html

      Some transcribed operating instructions for a White Vibrating Shuttle sewing machine (the pictures of the machine have the same style of bobbin winder as yours):

      http://needlebar.org/main/manuals/whitevs/index.html

      A PDF copy of a manual for a White Vibrating Shuttle sewing machine (the pictures show a machine with a different bobbin winder from yours):

      https://www.josefek.com/White.pdf

      With regard to the engraved information on the slide plate, it looks like the latest patent listed on it is dated MAR 11, 1890 (besides some unspecified "PATENTS PENDING").

      If you look closely at the bobbin winder mechanism at needlebar dot org, there seems to be some information engraved on it:

      http://needlebar.org/nbwiki/images/e/e9/Whitevs2-607482c.jpg

      Does yours have that? If so, could you transcribe it in a comment here?

      The reason I ask is that I might be able to dig up some patent listings.
    6. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Hi again, Nikki45042. :-)

      Before I forget, I'd like to address the subject of your White sewing machine's cabinet.

      While White sewing machines were available in some beautiful cabinets, there seems to be little surviving information about the who and the where of their making.

      The cabinet yours most closely resembles is the No. 3:

      https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=426x10000:format=jpg/path/s51e998845fd4a378/image/i46a11a8a187abf4a/version/1535813823/image.jpg

      https://www.fiddlebase.com/american-machines/white-sewing-machine-company/dating-identifying-white-sewing-machines/

      The only reference I've been able to find for a maker of any White sewing machine cabinets is here:

      *snip*

      Makers produced them [the Martha Washington cabinet] from the early to the mid-19th century in walnut or mahogany. Some came with drawer inserts and other didn’t. Made to fulfill a practical purpose, they became popular with women who liked their small size and maximum storage ability.

      The versions of this cabinet that mostly appear on the market today have three drawers and two flat top lids, which incorporated the "Soss" type invisible hinge, patented in November 1911, over the material compartments. The drawers can be either three different descending sizes, the smallest on top, or three of the same size. While thread holders appear in some, they’re not in all. Generally, they measure 27 inches wide, 14 deep, and 29 inches tall. In 1915, the Cowan Manufacturing Company of Toledo, Ohio, advertised their mahogany version for $12.50.

      *snip*

      http://antiquesqa.blogspot.com/2012/06/stitch-in-time.html

      Did Cowan Manufacturing Company also make the No. 3? I don't know. :-(
    7. keramikos, 3 years ago
      As to patents: that will take some time.

      I don't know if you noticed, but while the fiddlebase dot com website does provide more than a few patent listings, they don't have those most recent ones explicitly engraved on your slide plate (dated MAR 11, 1890).

      One of the biggest problems with patent searches in the USPTO databases is that for pre-1976 patents, you can only search using three criteria (and two of them don't seem terribly helpful):

      *snip*

      Patents from 1790 through 1975 are searchable only by Issue Date, Patent Number, and Current Classification (US, IPC, or CPC).

      *snip*

      http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.htm

      So while we have a date, that produces 539 results:

      http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=ISD%2F3%2F11%2F1890&d=PALL

      I'm still interested in any patents that pertain to that unusual bobbin winder, though. :-)
    8. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Your slide plate is unusual in that it doesn't look like either of the two depicted at fiddlebase:

      US PATENTS
      MAR 5 1872
      MAR 14 1876
      MAY 22 1876
      OCT 24 1876
      JAN 16 1877
      MAR 20 1877
      MAR 27 1877
      NOV 26 1881
      around 1893

      https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=544x10000:format=jpg/path/s51e998845fd4a378/image/i68aab808fa84a100/version/1535890745/image.jpg

      US PATENTS
      DEC 30 1884
      DEC 4 1888
      MAY 21 1889
      MAR 11 1890
      MAR 11 1890
      MAR 11 1890
      from March. 1890 c. onwards

      https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=548x10000:format=jpg/path/s51e998845fd4a378/image/i5c8df7605a61d728/version/1535890864/image.jpg

      Yours:

      US PATENTS
      MAR 5 1872
      MAR 27 1877
      JUL 11 1882
      APR 26 1883
      JUL 15 1884
      DEC 31 1884
      DEC 4 1888
      MAY 31 1889
      MAR 11 1890
      MAR 11 1890
      MAR 11 1890
      OTHER PATENTS
      PENDING

      I had another look at the bobbin pictures and text at fiddlebase dot com, and while I think they have a editing problem that clouds things a bit, here are the patent dates for the bobbin winder that looks like yours:

      May 14, 1872
      March 14, 1876
      July 11, 1882

      Additionally, they linked a patent listing for March 14, 1876, but I can't make any sense of it with regard to what the bobbin winder actually looks like:

      https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/48/25/29/ba165cfedc5701/US174703.pdf

      https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=346x10000:format=jpg/path/s51e998845fd4a378/image/i9bf17413ff680783/version/1536180323/image.jpg

      https://www.fiddlebase.com/american-machines/white-sewing-machine-company/dating-identifying-white-sewing-machines/

      So I guess I need to find those three patents listed on the bobbin winder (May 14, 1872; March 14, 1876; July 11, 1882).
    9. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Woo hoo! I found the July 11, 1882 patent for your particular bobbin winder (it's quite recognizable):

      https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=00260734&IDKey=ED98ED3635BA%0D%0A&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r%3D1%2526p%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPALL%2526S1%3D18820711.PD.%2526OS%3Disd%2F7%2F11%2F1882%2526RS%3DISD%2F18820711

      I think I'll share with the owner/operator of fiddlebase dot com (if they're still around to care, that is). };-)
    10. Nikki45042 Nikki45042, 3 years ago
      Wow, thank you for all the research you've done on my machine. Does this mean it is possibly a rare machine? How would I go about getting an appraisal on it? I love the history, it's fascinating to me.
    11. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Nikki45042, You're welcome. :-)

      Here's an easier link for the bobbin winder patent:

      https://patents.google.com/patent/US260734

      I also found what I believe might be those last three patents listed on your slide plate (all dated MAR 11 1890):

      https://patents.google.com/patent/US423111
      https://patents.google.com/patent/US423112
      https://patents.google.com/patent/US423113

      As to how rare your machine is, I couldn't say. I think it's possibly rare in the sense that it seems to have come out at a transitional time in the history of White's Vibrating Shuttle machine, and bears characteristics of both the VSII and the VSIII machines.

      Yours has the bobbin winder assembly more typically seen on VSII machines:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VS_IIa_White_Treadle_Sewing_Machine.jpg

      But the semi-circular tension assembly seen on VSIII machines:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:White.VibratingShuttle.VersionIII.front.jpg

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sewing_Machine

      You can get an appraisal via the appraisal link at the top of the page here at CW, but it isn't free. Currently, it looks like it costs thirty dollars.

      I don't want to burst anybody's bubble, but neither do I want to see people spend their money needlessly.

      You'd probably do well to read the advice of one of the experts at the International Sewing Machine Collectors' Society (ISMACS):

      http://ismacs.net/sewing_machine_articles/how_much_is_my_sewing_machine_worth.html
    12. keramikos, 3 years ago
      Hi again, Nikki45042.

      I tried to contact the owner/operator of fiddlebase dot com via email with those patent listings, and got a sad reply. It was from his wife who informed me that Enrico had passed away recently. :-(

      She suggested that I pass that information to other vintage sewing machine collectors, and also tell them that she would not be able to help anybody with vintage sewing machines.

      Per the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) website, the fiddlebase dot com website will expire soon, but hopefully it will live on in Mr. Peabody's WABAC machine:

      https://web.archive.org/web/*/fiddlebase.com

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