Posted 2 years ago
remersandr…
(2 items)
Hi there,
I've picked up this statue, sure I had seen it before.
But now can't find the original.
It's described as Mother and Baby Escaping Fire.
They are perched on a roof top, awaiting help!
It's spelter, painted black. And heavy!
I just weighed it, 17.4 kgs
The only one online is for sale and described as Victorian, but has no maker.
I feel sure it's to commemorate a fire, possibly in Paris?
I think the clothes are French?
Any help and ideas greatly appreciated.
Try...Hippolyte Moreau widow walk
Here's some examples of his works..
http://www.artnet.com/artists/hippolyte-fran%C3%A7ois-moreau/
@dav2no1, Yet again, you superstar. Thanks.
I'd still like to know when it was made, but the Moreau connection will keep me happy for now!
It's an interteresting subject, The Widow's Walk. Why a widow? What just happened?
I'm glad it's French. My partner lives in Paris, so i think i've seem it, in the flesh, so as to speak.
Beautiful sculpture with incredible detail!! Nice job of sleuthing Dave!!
remersandremers, Yep, dav2no1's Google Fu is excellent, as usual. :-)
However, there is more than one mystery about this sculpture.
Here is a bronze edition of "AFTER HIPPOLYTE MOREAU WIDOW'S WALK":
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/47276709_after-hippolyte-moreau-widow-s-walk-bronze
It's beautiful, but it's described as being signed on the back as "H. P. Moreau."
Indeed, if you look at the picture of the back, it looks unambiguous: "H. P. Moreau."
The problem? French sculptor Hippolyte Moreau's middle name was François.
The Moreau sculptors:
https://www.wga.hu/html_m/m/moreau_m/index.html
https://www.wga.hu/html_m/m/moreau_m/hyppolit/index.html
I can't find any pictures of this sculpture that aren't described as "AFTER HIPPOLYTE MOREAU WIDOW'S WALK"
It would seem that if this were a work described as being a copy of or inspired by a work of Hippolyte Moreau ("H. P. Moreau"), one should be able to find the original or the inspiration somewhere.
Perhaps the maker of the original sculpture was a talented charlatan hoping to ride on the coattails of the Moreau family's fame.
'Tis a puzzlement.
Then there is the title of the work. By tradition, a "widow's walk" is an architectural feature:
*snip*
The widow’s walk (or “viewing platform,” as it was sometimes called) is a raised and fenced rectangular structure built on the roof of a house. These platforms became especially popular during the height of the whaling industry throughout New England ports such as Edgartown on the island of Martha’s Vineyard.
It is said the widow’s walk served as an elevated vantage point for seamen’s wives to survey the harbor for their husbands’ arrival. Sadly, many never returned, leaving their anxious wives widows.
*snip*
https://patrickahearn.com/blog/the-widows-walk/
Apparently, that isn't necessarily true:
*snip*
There’s a much less romantic explanation: because the chimney was typically incorporated into the platform, they were likely used for putting out chimney fires. Families would store buckets of water and sand at the base of the ladder and, in the event of a fire, would pour them down the stack to extinguish the flames.
*snip*
https://www.livabl.com/2015/03/widows-walk-new-england-architecture.html
But, I digress. };-)
In this sculpture, it appears the woman and child are indeed up on a roof looking -- for rescue from rising waters.
The title seems like a somewhat cruel play on words.
More about the Moreau family:
*snip*
Mathurin received many awards and specialized more in large statues - like you find in a town square, and his work followed the academic style. Many of Mathurin’s sculptures can be found around Paris, including L’Océanie, which is located in the Musée d’Orsay courtyard. Mathurin also won first place at the Paris World Fair in 1855 for his Fontaine de Tourny, which is now located in Quebec.
The other 2 of the 3 brothers were more into “production”, and the whole family was in the sculptor “business”. Auguste’s sons Louise Auguste and Hippolyte Francoise also went into partnership when they created the L & F Moreau signature for their spelter (a die cast metal with a bronze coating) and bronze statues. In addition to the L & F Moreau mark, the statues were signed by one of the two brothers.
As far as authenticity goes, there were MANY reproductions of most things. Since the sculptures were cast, there was nothing stopping the family from using the cast to produce multiple statues. So, while a statue might not be a “fake”, it might still be an “in house” reproduction. Since the family was known to reproduce their own sculptures, the likelihood of having the original statue is pretty low. A Paris stamp on the statue is indicative of the factory that continued to produce statuary even after the family members passed. Some Moreau statues do command a good price, but most are made of spelter, and many are painted.
They were very talented men, but definitely in the sculpture “business”.
*snip*
https://www.mysculpturesgallery.com/who-were-the-moreau-sculptors-291.html
@keramicos,
That's really interesting about the signature and the wrong initials, mine has no sign of a mark or signature. And to be printed quite so large looks funny.
And i like the story about the chimney fires, though the "water" at her feet makes more sense; it doesn't look like flames. Equally, why have water at rooftop height?
So, i guess it's artistic licence? Drowning in grief?
Thanks so much for all your help.
But as you say, if it's "after" Moreau, then there should be an original; the hunt continues...
remersandremers, You're welcome. :-)
I don't quite know what to make of this.
Thus far, I think I've seen exactly two copies of this sculpture. There is your unsigned copy, but all of the other online listings I see seem to be of the same other copy of the sculpture:
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/after-hippolyte-moreau-widows-walk-bronze-1415-c-4da4ddaba8#
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/47276709_after-hippolyte-moreau-widow-s-walk-bronze
https://www.marks4antiques.com/apa/AFTER-HIPPOLYTE-MOREAU-WIDOW-S-1fdaf2
All three of the listings reflect Burchard Galleries Inc in St. Petersburg, FL as the vendor, and two of the three show pictures of the "H. P. Moreau" inscription on the back side.
Per that mysculpturesgallery dot com website information, the Moreau family was known to cast more than one sculpture from a given mold, and put different inscriptions on them, but not "H. P. Moreau."
As to waves instead of flames: it could go either way, I suppose.
Water can indeed reach that height, as numerous modern flood survivors can attest.
That "drowning in grief" is a good interpretation. It could explain the "Widow's Walk" title.
There is an extensive and interesting discussion between various people at that mysculpturesgallery dot com "Who Were the Moreau Sculptors?" entry.
One visitor opined that there was more than one Moreau with a first initial of "H."
Another asserts the original Moreau molds were bought by USA-based J.B. Hirsch, and reused.
Here is a listing that supports that last opinion:
*snip*
This beautiful Art Nouveau lamp represents Euterpe, Muse of Music. Original produced by brothers L & F Moreau the molds were hidden during WWII from the advancing Nazis army and forgotten. The molds were rediscovered by the JB Hirsh Company in 1948, brought to the United States and used to produce the lamps in his Collection Francaise.
*snip*
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/lighting/table-lamps/art-nouveau-lamp-after-moreau-from-j-b-hirsh-collection-francaise/id-f_10404543/
FYI, a search of that mysculpturesgallery site for "Moreau" turns up quite a few "Moreau" sculptures signed different ways (as well as some not signed at all), but not "H. P. Moreau."
Last but not necessarily least, one of the participants in that extensive discussion at mysculpturesgallery dot com self-identified as "Phil D. Morris."
Um, zat you, Phil?:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/user/PhilDMorris
BTW, remersandremers, I think I should advise you to try to reorient your post pictures so that they aren't sideways.
Improperly oriented pictures are usually caused by the CW S&T software not playing nicely with all image sources, particularly smart phones and tablets.
Some CW users won't even bother with a post that has sideways or upside-down images in it. Other will comment, but only to advise the poster to reorient their images.
It may be why PhilDMorris hasn't commented on this post thus far, as he is a bit sensitive about improperly oriented images.
To reorient the images, try editing copies. Some times all it take is to trim the long sides of the rectangular images a tiny bit, then edit the post, remove the sideways versions, and add the edited copies.
Keramikos..fascinating information you found. I knew what a widows walk was and was trying to figure out if it was a play on words.
dav2no1, I was impressed that you were able to find a Moreau connection, but once I used your search criteria, and started scrutinizing the results, I began to have a lot of questions.
So, here we are now, huh? };-)
remersandremers thinks they've seen it before, and has an unsigned copy.
The only other copy I've been able to find is signed, but signed with an odd inscription, and described as "AFTER HIPPOLYTE MOREAU" (possibly because the vendor realized that there was no member of the Moreau family of sculptors who signed their name as "H. P. Moreau").
It seems like CW user PhilDMorris might have some Moreau knowledge and even Moreau sculptures of his own, but hasn't weighed in yet.
I agree with you that the title might be a play on words.
remersandremers, I looked at the sculpture again, and decided that the stuff at the bottom was water rather than flames.
The woman's foot is actually touching the stuff, and if it were flames, she would have lost control and fallen.
Also, the situation depicted in the sculpture might not be quite as dire as it seems at first glance. The woman appears to have one hand over her eyes to help her see, but the child seems to be pointing at something, so perhaps help is already on the way.
Thanks so much for all the research and info. Very interesting bit about the molds being lost and refound, that could explain the lack of marks? Also the brothers making money makes sense too!
And apologies,I did try and get the photos the right way up. It was as they loaded to the site, they turned around. I did try twice, but i'll get it right for the next time; I agree it bothers me too!
Usually statues never represented a real fire or storm. I have had a fair number of Moreau sculptures, most all by Mathurin Moreau, and also a number by August Moreau, who was the most prolific by far. I had not seen this sculpture before as the books have the fewest by Hippo as he was not regarded anywhere near what Mathurin produced. Mathurin and August were very adept at carving faces and hands which surpasses a lot of others. There were such things as strong winds, winter storms, freezing and most of those more dramatic might be found more in the old French car mascots which depicted more things than any other staatues normally would. My Moreau sculptures I treasured more than most and valuable bronze ones like that in 32 inch size are a big rarity. I like this one of yours but it does not have the quality detail as the baby feet and hands are not done very well. A lot of these pieces now are still heavy but are solid resin where the weight is. Those statues never are hollow as a bronze should be, but are poured resin. On this one I would want to see a pic of the bottom as that would tell all. Is the base hollow or filled in ? if it is not hollow as this base would be then it would be made of resin. The woman's hand that hold the baby is poorly done along with her feet which a lot of statues made in the 90's out of resin were made exactly like that !~
The Burchard Galleries I have purchased from them before and they only sell the real thing from what I know so they have someone who knows their stuff. I am specifically asked for often by the sculpture forum to weigh in on someones statue they have. This one you have if it was made of metal it would be stained after so many years or a pristine cared for one with a close to perfect patina on it. The ones with the poorer feet and hands like the one pictured were done in the late eighties likely. Also on the back a bit of damage which looks exactly like the damage on a 1980's resin piece. The ones done in this century are another matter. This one of yours has the "metal" base with some nice lines on it. On a lot of the repros I see their lines are often muted somewhat, lines can go off and same with a circulare base.
The newer resin pieces are heavy and the modelling on the feet and hands is a lot better, making it so much harder to just look at them and tell if it is a newer reproduction in resin. The new ones could even fool me I imagine at times. Of course no one has allowed me yet to break their piece to prove it is made of resin or metal. The only thing you have to watch for are copies sold as the real thing. I used to own one resin piece I used to use at the antique shows I did. I liked it and just used it to get the antique feeling around my books I sold.
@PhilDMorris thanks so much for you help.
I agree that compared to other Moreau statues i've looked at, the detail is not great.
I did wonder if the thick black paint was covering it up, but they are just not as fine.
I've changed the photos, to show the rear and the painted surface.
The plinth is wood and can't be removed easily.
As i knock it, it has a metalic noise; and is cold to the touch.
There are two small holes on the top of each of their heads.
And through the tiny gap at the bottom, i can see it's hollow.
I'm 99% sure i'm looking at metal, not resin.
But all info and opinions are appreciated, thanks
Ha ha, looking at the photos i've just posted, when you zoom in, it looks like resin!
I think the dust is affecting the pictures, to be honest. Making it look like fibreglass!
She is filthy with dust.
PhilDMorris, That's some interesting information about statues never representing a real fire or storm. I think that puts us back to a more traditional explanation for "Widow's Walk."
remersandremer, It looks like your statue is outside, so dust is quite understandable.