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Posted 10 months, 18 days ago
TMLAFF
(1 item)
This Nat'l Bank Note is graded 40PPQ by PMG and was issued by the First Nat'l Bank of New Bethlehem, Pa, Charter No. 4978 (Pop < 2000) and has a Ser #1! I purchased this note as a collector not as a retailer. However, it's value is elusive and probably best determined by more seasoned collectors rather than a dealer (for resale).
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This note sold at public auction in August of 2011 for $3,450. I think it is fair to say the fair value was established then within $250 depending on the day.
correction: August 2010
Thanks,, James. I'm aware of the (sale) history of this note. However, I would not use an auction sale price any more than a dealer's appraisal for estimating the market value of an item. There's another 1882 $10 Brownback, same grade but uncertified, from a similar sized town in Pa (Montgomery), Ser #1, same FR-#, advertised for $29,500. I think the seller is fishing for Moby Dick in a small pond but the bottom line is, it's worth whatever someone's willing to pay :)
Not to be rude, but an auction result for the exact same item combined with dealers' appraisals is exactly what I would use to establish market value.
If you ever decide to sell yor car, don't ask the person that wants to buy it to tell you what it's worth! I'm sure your methodology would generate a fair price and quick sale, though. At best, I would search the archives of different auction houses, e-bay, etc. to establish an 'estimated value' based on several sale prices
Not to press the issue, but to help better understand collectors, let me ask this question:
You know that this exact same note sold at a huge public auction where every possible dealer and collector would see it. This happened less than 12 months ago. Why would you think the market value is anything but what it sold for at auction? People put notes in auctions so that they can achieve the market value. I can't think of a more perfect way to determine the market value to both collectors and dealers.
I have to agree with James on this-- unless the item was incorrectly catalogued or there were issues with taking bids at the auction, I'd say the market value has been established.
I have bought many items at auction, and not at "market value." Many times, because they are lower, and often much lower than market value, is why I buy them.
A well advertized specialty sale, that is well attended, and ran well, might bring the best money for an item, and it might not.
I have a pocket watch that I bought at an bankruptcy auction of a jewelry store where the Dallas Watch Collectors Society showed up in mass, and I still got it a a small fraction of its market value.
As the often quoted saying goes, ... "what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller" is the market value ... but only of THAT MARKET.
Agreed, Jason. I've bought and sold currency at 2X or more of the purchase price. You might get a representative value from several auction sales of identical currency as stated. You won't find an 1882 $10 brownback, certified to the same grade, same Fr No., etc. for anything close to $3450. Now, one exception is kids . . . I couldn't auction or sell mine for anything near to what I've invested in them!
I think the real issue here is that Terry was uninformed and paid $5,000 to a seller on ebay to buy this note, and now he is trying to justify that he didn't pay too much.
I agree that you can buy for something $50 at a major auction and maybe find someone who really needs it who will pay $100 later on in a retail setting. And you can also buy something for $3,500 at a safety deposit box auction, estate sale, or generally poorly advertised auction - and you could sell that to a collector for $7,000. However, you will have a tough time flipping something out of a major auction where every dealer and collector knew about the auction.
Interest will usually wane when there are several sales of the EXACT same item.
Part of the attraction of the Heritage Auction was that the note had not been on the market for 12 years and was advertised as such.
James ... I know nothing about the specifics of this bill, it past history, or who Terry is.
I do know when I have the money to do so, I can go to auction and out bid all the dealers in the country for an item, because I know they won't spend the "fair market value," and generally they will try to spend 1/3rd of the market or less, unless they have some one for a quick turn around. That is how they make a profit. They have to cover overhead and initial cost of the item and have room for profit. I merely have to buy it an put it in my collection.
I only like to buy below market value, as that is where the initial profit is for an item. Why should I go to an auction, spend my time there and the costs to me involved, to buy something for $100.00 any other day of the week for $100.00? At some auctions I have seen some things go at "FULL Market Value" and even higher, but that is rarely so with knowledgeable people that do their homework. A week or two back, I went to an auction where coins and stamps were sold. Every single lot went higher than the "fair market value." The reason was they had very little true value, and the person that bought them all, did not have a clue as to their value. The auctioneer talked the item up and introduced each one at a price that already exceeded "fair market value" laughing all the way to the bank of how he made a fool of the lady. Of course he lost my respect and will lose the lady as a customer, as soon as she finds out.
Again, I don't know Terry, nor why he should feel he has to justify his purchase to anyone but himself. But the principle that an auction determines "Fair Market Value," every time or even most of the time, I disagree.
What ScottVez says in post 11 is true. That can affect the value as well. (same object repeated brought to market)
Also what is sold in the same sale will affect the price an object brings.
Many factors can play with auction results.
I knew a person that had a major auction scheduled of his property for September 11, 2001. It was a train wreck.
Currently ebay is THE market place for antiques and collectables. And, in my opinion, ebay auctions sales determine "fair market value" for most of the antiques and collectables that are bought and sold today.
Take a look at Collector's Weekly-- whenever someone wants a "value" most here cite ebay auctions as a good indicator. Appraisers readily use ebay sales as well in their valuations.
With that being said, there are bargains on ebay every day, where items don't sell for "fair market value". Many of these under market value sales are due to poor descriptions. By dropping the obvious high and low aberrations, a mean value of most items can be quickly determined-- which I would call the "fair market value"
Scott
E-bay WAS the market place. It is the BIN (Buy It Now) place not the auction place it once was. They have driven the sellers of certain items away and therefore the buyers of those items as well. Victorian pencils are one example, and there are others. Their forced PayPal and "No Negative Feedback" rule for sellers have changed the climate. The PayPal charge backs has caused sellers to quit selling there. ... Their sells are way down from what it was and a very small percent is posted as auctions. A large number close nowadays without getting a single bid.
People often quote "check eBay for closed auctions" because they don't want to tell the person what they have is junk, and because they don't want to stick their neck out by giving a actual figure.
Many items I would not dream of selling on e-Bay. Heritage seems to be THE market place for many higher end items, if you don't mind them ending up with 25% or more of the fair market value. 15% to 20% from the sellers part, and 10% buyers. The buyer must stop and leave room for the 10% he has to pay for the privilege of buying it in their auction
I agree with Kevin in regards to eBay. I spent close to a year selling there and what I made was nothing more than pocket change. Granted, I wasn't putting up rare or high priced items but, having spent many days on their "sellers forums" I learned one thing that they kept repeating over and over and over again and that bit of advice was..."Don't put anything up for auction on eBAy that you wouldn't mind losing." The climate on that site is so stacked in favor of the buyers that it's become ridiculous. Many times, all the buyer has to do is file a SNAD complaint (significantly not as described) and they will get a full refund. Oftentimes, after receiving their refund, they keep the item as well. Then there are those scam artists that will have the exact same item as yours but only not in as great a condition, bid and win your item, and then switch them and send you their item that is in terrible condition. eBay is more of a headache than what it's worth in my opinion. I nearly fell out of my chair when, while on their "seller's forums", someone admitted to selling a $12,000 watch. Lo and behold, the check bounced and the buyer wasn't answering any of their e-mails. What a surprise. I'm very relieved that I jumped ship when I did and that no one bid on the real expensive items that I had posted when I was just starting out on eBay. I guess that I'm very fortunate in that regard.
I agree with both of you on SELLING on ebay.
Prices are down but it is still the market place to quickly sell an antique or collectable. And with a good representative quantity of most antiques and collectables, I still consider it to be the antiques and collectables market and representative of the "market value" of most items.
GRENDELKING ... I sold thousands of dollars worth of stuff on E-Bay and never had any trouble, and took only checks and money orders. But I always noted that I would hold the merchandise until they cleared. I rarely had a problem becasue the US Postal Service MO cleared immediately at the Post Office. With forced PayPal, the buyers have all the rights, and for anything they can get a refund and as you say keep the item. I made a close examination of the PayPal board on eBay and that is what convinced me to not take PayPal. One seller after another ripped off. One jeweler in Tulsa sold a diamond bracelet to a dealer in Florida for $1200.00 and the dealer in Fla. demanded he give her the sources for his merchandise. He refused and she filed a SNAD, got PayPal to refund and kept the diamond bracelet.
E-Bay has killed their auction side by their policies until only a seller that didn't know what they were doing would put anything of much value in an auction without a reserve. In the past I started auctions of 100.00 cash at 99 cents and no reserve. I have sold items and taken out of country payments of nearly $2,000.00 without a problem, but no more on e-Bay.
Now, I deal locally or o"ne on one" via the net. I still would prefer US Postal Money Orders for payment over PayPal any day, and in fact won't take PayPal at all.
E-Bay killed sellers, less good items come up, less watchers and bidders dropped prices, making less sellers willing to sell, making less good items ... and the decline continues. Ever since the forced PayPal and no Negative feedback for buyer went into effect, they have declined, and they have blamed it all on the economy. I buy a good collectable item locally, and sell it locally for more than it sells on eBay, without a problem.
... old camera for sell in a local flea market for $10.00 ... and on eBay they sell for $10.00. I buy it and sell it in my market for $25.00 in two weeks time. I don't don't give eBay a cut of the sell, I don't give eBay owned PayPal another cut of the sell AND the shipping, and I don't deal with Scam Artists using PayPal, and I don't have to pack and mail. Win, win, win and win for me.
E-Bay WAS ... is no longer the setter of "Fair Market Value."
SCOTT ... says "Prices are down but it is still the market place to quickly sell an antique or collectable."
The point is, those that are trying to quickly sell an item, are not likely to reach FULL market value. E-Bay used to be a place where you sold an item for more than you could anywhere else. No where near that now.
If I had a rare item (and I do) I would not look to eBay to see its value. I would look to eBay to see what the least I could expect to get for it.
Many times on CW, people say go to eBay and check it there, they really mean "you item is a piece of junk, and instead of me telling you, and you get mad at me, I will let you find out from another source." In my opinion anyway.
Some more common items, that are not on the radar of the Scam Artists, eBay can give an idea of basic value.
Ebay has changed the market place. Many "one of a kind" and "rare" items are no longer thought of in those terms:
"If I can find 20 of grandpas GAR medals on ebay at any given time, then it must not be as rare as I was led to believe and consequently not worth as much as I thought."
If I am selling GAR medals and I actually want to move them, my prices better be competitive with ebay. If they aren't, buyers will buy them on ebay and not from me. Most buyers that I deal with (I set up at Civil War shows) are familiar with ebay pricing and use it to gauge what they should pay for an item. Sure there are truly rare, one of a kind items that cannot be compared with an ebay item for pricing, but MOST antiques and collectables don't fall into that category.
If I can find 10 sales of a particular item on ebay completed auctions, I would call that range the "market value" of an item. I would consider a "local sale" at a higher price or lower price a deviation from market value. If it so happens that the local sale is higher than the ebay range, then that is great for the seller; however, it hasn't changed the market value. If there are 10 local sales of the same item (and the information is readily available), then I would say that market value has changed.
Simple ... find ten Brownbacks on E-bay that have closed with bids.
Find ten Sterling Hughes Tool Company Watch Fobs on eBay that have closed with bids.
Find ten 1944 GOP Press badges on eBay that have closed, with bids.
BINs do not count. Not that any of these can be done.
AR8JAONS (me) said ... "Some more common items, that are not on the radar of the Scam Artists, eBay can give an idea of basic value."
We weren't talking about common items.
AR8JASON
If I find 10 Snicker bars in a grocery store for 50 cents each, and I find 10 Snicker bars in a Gas Station for $1.00 each I consider them different markets, each with their own "market value."
Better than finding 10 brownbacks on ebay-- I can find this EXACT note that sold at a well advertised, national currency auction within the last year for $3500. It apparently sold several months later for $5000. I would put the market value in the $3500- $5000 range. If the second buyer was unaware of the first sale at $3500, then I would shift the market value closer to the $3500.
I didn't say ebay sets the price for ALL antiques and collectables.
Using your $10 camera as an example: You find many on ebay selling for $10, you buy one for $10 and sell it for $25. That is great for you, but your one sale hasn't changed the market value. Market value is still $10 with a notable deviation. If you sell 10 of them of for $25, then market value has shifted.
As far as the as the snickers bars, I would say we need more data. Price doesn't determine market value-- sales price determines market value. Thousands of these snickers are sold each day and market value probably falls in the $.75 range. Additionally, I would call those that purchased several of the $1 bars uneducated consumers (or an impulse or convenience driven consumer), just as I would say the buyer of your $25 camera was not an educated buyer (or was driven by impulse). Again these are deviations and don't mean the market value has changed.
I'm not looking for support or justification (this brownback is not for sale) . . just information. If I found an 1882, $10, PMG EF40, ser #1A (sheet No. 1), same Fr, etc, etc, NBN that sold for $1000, I would have to consider that information. One other consideration is that notes issued from smaller banks/geographical areas also command a higher premium. The note I discussed in Post #3 meets all this criteria and is advertised for $29,500. I'm not using this value as an indicator since it might sell for $100! The fact is, you won't find more than one (maybe two) similar notes ANYWHERE on the internet and that's why I was seeking more information.
Wow, this is one of the longest posts I have ever read on here. Interesting...
All this talk about Snickers bars is getting me very hungry. ;-)
I've got a 2011 Snickers Bar with only one bite out of it for $50 . . . uh, two bites . . .