Posted 11 months ago
larrygarrett
(2 items)
This marble is about 15/16" - 1". It shows a cowboy who's horse running at full clip: Pony Express? Hard to read gold decal on black: almost impossible to photograph! Marble reads "Winchester 100th anniversary 1866 - 1966." We have no reason to believe that it was made in 1966; although it may be possible. Question: does anyone know anything about this marble? For example, which company made it? Did Winchester commission it? How many were made? We simply have no idea, but would dearly love to know! Thanks in advance for any help!
It's a marble..there's a few on ebay and etsy..
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/winchester-1866-1966-100th-anniversary-large-marb-466-c-48942438c1
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-winchester-100th-anniversary-1815550695
Hi, larrygarrett. :-)
I'm intrigued by your statement that you have no reason to believe that this commemorative marble was made in 1966.
In looking at your other post, I see that you know a lot about marbles, so I won't burden you with a lot of marble links.
Is it perhaps the specific combination of the iconic Winchester horse and rider image combined with the name "WINCHESTER" (as opposed to "WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS" or some other variation) that makes you think 1966 is unlikely?
A few Winchester tidbits:
*snip*
1965. While the “Horse & Rider” have been part of Winchester’s brand since 1919 when it was used by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, it’s not until now that the “Horse & Rider” trademark is officially registered.
*snip*
https://www.winchesterguns.com/news/historical-timeline/1950-1999.html
About the artist Phillip R. Goodwin:
https://www.winchesterguns.com/news/articles/artist-behind-winchester-horse-rider.html
The 1966 comment is simply this: what evidence do we have that it was distributed in 1966? Any at all? There were few marble makers running marbles in 1966. Who made the marble? It is probable that the maker did not screen print it. Wonder who did? At any rate, I feel that I am getting closer to an answer and thank every one for their input. Not solved yet, but closer. Oh, & believe me, lots of stuff which looks official online isn't true at all!
Hi again, larrygarrett. :-)
I did a bit more looking around with regard to trademarks involving the Winchester horse & rider image.
First of all ownership. The Olin Corporation acquired Winchester Repeating arms in 1931:
https://olin.com/about-olin/history/
There are a lot of trademarks that the Olin Corporation registered for use of the Winchester horse & rider image, including firearms, ammunition, but also chocolate, coffee, and jerky. You name it:
https://trademarks.justia.com/owners/olin-corporation-660/
My eyes might have missed it, but I never found a trademark for the 100th anniversary marble.
A couple of the trademarks that either fall into or close to the 1965 time frame cited on that winchesterguns website:
https://trademarks.justia.com/722/91/n-a-72291122.html
https://trademarks.justia.com/730/35/n-73035416.html
This one I find interesting because there is no mention of the Olin Corporation in it, but it claims first use in 1964:
https://trademarks.justia.com/736/25/winchester-commemorative-73625122.html
Did somebody try to jump the gun (yeah, I know) on the Olin Corporation with regard to the 100th anniversary of Winchester?
Really good stuff. If someone, and I wonder who, jumped the gun (you started it!) in 1966, why not 2016? Ever seen anything branded the 150th anniversary? Sorry, I really can push the solved button, but thank you so much for all your research!
larrygarrett, Whoops, I was so busy typing up a storm that I didn't see you sneak in there with an explanation of your doubt on the 1966 date.
Yup, I can well believe that a lot of stuff that looks official online ain't necessarily so. That last trademark I put in my previous comment seems a bit fishy.
A little mood music:
It Ain't Necessarily So · Bobby Darin
That's All
? 1959 Atco Records. A Division of Atlantic Recording Corporation for the United States and WEA Internationa for the world outside of the United States.
Producer: Ahmet Ertegun
Vocals: Bobby Darin
Producer: Herb Abramson
Writer: George Gershwin
Writer: Ira Gershwin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmsPbt9OqBg
larrygarrett, You're welcome. :-)
In the first comment, the worthpoint seller claimed they bought that marble 50 years ago. This listing shows a promo pack with dice and a pencil. The pencil is marked "Western", which is probably western cartridge company..they took over and made winchester Ammunition. So making promo items is possible..
These are definitely fakes..
https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Collectible-trade-names-on-new-marbles
This article is better, even pointing out the old vs new staples to look for..
https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Fake-and-fantasy-bags-of-marbles
dav2no1, Hmmm, very interesting. };-)
I didn't see an exact twin of the black and gold Winchester 100th Anniversary marble at either of those sites, but I can well believe that some opportunist might have cashed in on the anniversary without consulting the Olin Corporation or paying any licensing fees.
FYI, I also saw some Winchester 100th Anniversary wine glasses, and a clock out there (they both have Winchester Western on them):
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1134587321/rare-winchester-western-wine-glasses
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/Very-desirable-1966-Winchester-Arms-100th-Anniversary-glass-faced-light-up-general-store-clock-208902
As to the marbles, it's probably no skin off of Olin's corporate nose if peope are selling a few individual fake old Winchester marbles on eBay, etc., but they might have a different posture on something like this:
https://www.sureshotjewelry.com/products/genuine-100th-anniversary-winchester-black-marble-orb-pendant-necklace
Seeing as the maker copyrighted the jewelry, I wonder whether they have any provenance on the marbles themselves.
Kera - I dis see the jewelry link..lol. winchester slide make a lot of different stuff over the years..
https://centerofthewest.org/2014/12/14/winchester-guns-and-more/#:~:text=When%20one%20takes%20a%20closer,headlamps%2C%20and%20even%20a%20motorcycle!
**did make..**
dav2no1, Wow. So even before the Olin Corporation took over in 1931, Winchester was making a lot of products that weren't related to firearms.
However, all of those posters at least suggest a firearm angle. Two of them show outdoorsmen who appear to be in imminent danger from bears and mountain lions, so along with flashlights, batteries, and fishing tackle, they had better be packing some heat.
Might wanna leave the roller skates back home, though. };-)
I decided to take another look at the Olin Corporation Winchester trademarks at Justia dot com.
Again, my eyes might have missed something, but insofar as I can tell, the earliest trademark that shows the iconic horse & rider image with the name "WINCHESTER" underneath it is from the 1990s -- and it's for pet food:
https://trademarks.justia.com/751/83/winchester-75183945.html
As to that "Winchester Commemorative" trademark I mentioned earler as a potential interloper, a closer look reveals that the attorney of record Bruce E. Burdick corresponded with one Francis J. Duffin, who shows up in a lot of the Olin Corporation Winchester trademarks, so it might be legit:
https://trademarks.justia.com/736/25/winchester-commemorative-73625122.html
So still no joy on finding the provenance on the black and gold Winchester 100th anniversary marble, but the actual design with the horse & rider and the Winchester name below looks like it might be from the mid-1990s.
I'm still poking around in the trademarks, because I see a discrepancy of four entries between Justia dot com, and the USPTO TESS database using the same search criteria (winchester, horse, olin).
However, I don't hold out much hope, because no matter what search criterial I use, I can't make either of them cough up a 100th anniversary entry.
A'ight, I think I'm done poking around in trademarks.
I found the four trademarks that the USPTO TESS knew about, but Justia did not.
Three out of four did involve the iconic horse & rider image, the fourth did not (the design search code contained the string horse, which is probably what made it trip in TESS).
Why doesn't Justia have the three extra Winchester/Olin horse & rider ones that USPTO TESS has? Dunno, except nothing is perfect.
Again: no matter what search criteria I used nor how I held my mouth, I couldn't find any Winchester 100th Anniversary 1866 - 1966 trademark.
To clear any confusion, these 100th Anniversary marbles are 100% unlicensed products - no doubt in the marble collecting community. There were never any officially licensed Winchester marbles, so I hesitate calling them "fakes/reproductions".
You can read more about modern logo marbles on this webpage: https://buymarbles.com/marblealan-medals.html
"here are also many advertisement marbles circulating, and these are often misrepresented as old. Most have been made since the 1970s by Qualatex and later by Lucky Dog, which bought the Qualatex machinery. In addition to the advertisement marbles, they also create character marbles. There is a very long list of these marbles, everything from Coca Cola to Buick and John Deere logos to superhero characters. Mostly, they are found on Marble King opaques, catseyes, and Rainbows, all modern. Since these are produced by screenprinting, the print can be felt on the marble."
FuzzyChubbs. Very interesting. Thanks. :-)