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Mystery silver hallmarks and Charter Oak pattern

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Silver Collecting58 of 681950's German Sterling silver 5 Pc Tea/Coffee ServiceSIX POINTED STAR SILVER BELT BUCKLE
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Posted 2 years ago

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ho2cultcha
(1016 items)

I had forgotten that i can actually 'see' a lot better w/ my camera than i can w/ just my eyes. the first hallmark is of the ladle w/ the odd bend in it. the last two are of the Roger's Bros. Charter Oak pattern ladle.

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Comments

  1. czechman czechman, 2 years ago
    maybe this will help :)
    http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks.html
  2. walksoftly walksoftly, 2 years ago
    good photo forget my comment on the other post.

    Is the first one a gravy ladle?
  3. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    the first two are the same spoon. it's some kind of a strange, bent ladle - could be for anything. ??
  4. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    thanks czechman. i spent hours on that site last night. i think it's british, but i couldn't find the iron cross. i also can't figure out why the w and b are so spread out. it's definitely a w and a b, not an r.
  5. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Hi, it's not British. I'm sure of that.
  6. chinablue chinablue, 2 years ago
    Hi ho2cultcha. The odd bend probably makes it either a mustard (usually about 4 inches long) or mayonnaise (5-6 inches long) ladle, or more likely a cream ladle (6-7 inches long with a wide bowl) for easier use with a pitcher. I agree with miKKo, it's not British, at least not sterling. The only British mark I know of off the top of my head that had an iron cross would be one of the old Sheffield silverplate makers like T&J. So you might want to check some of the makers with the W B initials.
    J F Fradley & Co in NY used an iron cross on their sterling, but I'm not at all familiar with their silver plate.
    As for that last mark, I'm totally at a loss as to what it might be. Wish I could add more. If I find out anything, I'll be sure and let you know!
  7. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    thanks mikko and chinablue. it must be the cream ladle because it's 7" long [even before i pounded to get that darn bend out of it.

    [just kidding!]
  8. chinablue chinablue, 2 years ago
    *feeling faint* you had me scared there for a minute, ho2cultcha! Well, hopefully you at least have a better idea of WHAT it is if you don't know the who or where yet. If all else fails, you can always send pictures in an email to replacements dot com. They are great with silver, china and crystal. It's a free service and they usually get back to you quite quickly. While not always 100% accurate, they are most always correct or at least get you pointed in the right direction. They should be able to provide maker and the pattern both! Now put that hammer down and leave that bend alone! ;-)
  9. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    thanks chinablue. i'll put the hammer down now...
  10. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Hi, all. I'm going to try to look up this hallmark in 5th ed tomorrow. miKKo
  11. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    wow! that'd be awesome mikko. i spent several hrs on it and just don't have any time these days. i can't wait to post some of the other stuff i got today - some amazing things!
  12. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Hi, all! Hope your Friday evening is splendid. Thanks much for your patience, ho2cultcha. FYI, I overexerted myself a bit, and I hope you will question me if I don't make good sense below....

    I think that this old American Victorian ladle is most probably in the "Lenora" pattern, which was introduced circa 1905 by William A. Rogers, Ltd. You can find the pattern name identified and linked with the silversmith firm and date of issue on p. 154 of Noel D. Turner's, “American Silver Flatware 1837-1910” (NY: A. S. Barnes and Company, 1972 copyright, third printing 1979). Turner’s illustration is not a photo, but it is excellent, and it captures the essential details beautifully. Also, p. 180 of "Silver Plated Flatware Patterns" by Fredna Harris Davis and Kenneth K. Deibel (Dallas: Bluebonnet Press, 1972) contains a line drawing of the "Lenora" pattern, and p. 180 likewise identifies the maker as William A. Rogers, Ltd. More importantly, Davis-Deibel provides both a description of the hallmark: ‘Cross W. R. Keystone” and an illustrated (drawing) hallmark that is very close to the one on the back of your ladle.

    Now, when I first looked at your hallmark, I thought that the second letter was a "B". However, if it were indeed a "B", the molded letter would be top-heavy. So, I think that it is really an "R". Dorothy Rainwater's (et alia) "The Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers" (revised 5th ed., Atglen, PA: Schiffer, 2004) provides further validation of my proposed pattern and maker ID’s. Page 208 has a drawing of a hallmark that is much closer to your ladle's than the one provided by Davis-Deibel, though I admit that there still is not a precise correspondence between Rainwater image and your hallmark. Davis-Deibel render the "W." and the "R." sans serif, but with periods following name initials. Rainwater renders the initials with serifs and periods. Another problem is that both Rainwater and Davis-Deibel use crosses that are slightly different from one another, and significantly different from your hallmark. Both Rainwater and Davis-Deibel use what I shall call the “Iron Cross”. (I am no expert on crosses. I hope that if I make a mistake in referring to these crosses as examples of the “Iron Cross” someone will correct me! Similarly, I have not made a thorough study of 'all the types of crosses that exist'; and if I err in identifying your ladle's cross hallmark as “potent”, please correct me.) The difference between the crosses in Rainwater and Davis-Deidel is perhaps a small one. In Rainwater’s rendition, the arms have a significant ‘arc’ to them, and there is much more negative space between the arms. In Davis-Deibel’s rendition, the arms have a very shallow arc, and the arms are very close together. To me, the cross in your hallmark looks more like the “POTENT CROSS”. Finally, neither Rainwater nor Davis-Deibel render the keystone hallmark with a double border; whereas, your keystone has a molded double border. Finally, it seems to me that the fact that Davis-Deibel provides both the “Cross W. R. Keystone” hallmark description and a pictorial rendering perhaps suggests that Davis-Deibel was aware of a ‘small’ discrepancy between its illustration and the verbal description. Now, follow some images of types of crosses.

    Images of a POTENT CROSS:
    http://www.crosscrucifix.com/124-2.gif

    Images of a Jerusalem Cross:
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=images+of+Jerusalem+cross&oq=images+of+Jerusalem+cross&gs_l=hp.3..33i29.411.6243.0.6414.25.19.0.6.6.1.351.4602.0j6j7j5.18.0...0.0...1c.pm2Uugtevhc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=a58033305ad44e3b&biw=1366&bih=622

    Images of an Iron Cross:
    http://photobucket.com/images/iron+cross/

    Follows a link to a good page on types of crosses:
    http://www.crosscrucifix.com/glossaryhome.htm#top

    Both Rainwater and Davis-Deibel indicate that this mark is used to designate a “Medium Grade” of silverplate, i.e., one in which the pieces have less silver content than the higher grade. Rainwater calls this “Half Plate Flatware”.

    Per Rainwater, William A. Rogers was a small New York ‘storekeeper’ who marked his flatware with a “Rogers” stamp. He was granted permission to use the name “Wm. A. Rogers” on his silverplate pieces if he ensured that the silver content of his flatware was equal to that produced by the better known Rogers Brothers. There is a bit more history in Rainwater, p. 208. Both Rainwater and Davis-Deibel identify the current owner as Oneida Silversmiths.

    After I found the answer I was looking for in the reference works, I turned to the internet. Since I already knew the answer, I was able to find a confirmation on the internet quickly. Here’s a link with a photo of your hallmark:

    http://www.sterlingflatwarefashions.com/SPMfgs/SPW2.html

    The same website provides a photo of a Lenora flatware pattern on another page. Follows a link to that page:

    http://www.sterlingflatwarefashions.com/SPPatterns/WRKeystone.html

    The page provides an alternate spelling – “Leonora”, and indicates that this is sometimes marked “Liquid Carbolic”. I found mention in another book today of the “Liquid Carbolic” mark, but I cannot remember which one.

    Ho2cultcha, can you please examine this posting and its links and confirm a match? Thanks a lot!!! I enjoyed visiting these wonderful silver books again today. miKKo : )

    Please note that I also consulted “Marks of American Silversmiths s Revised: 1650-1900”, by Robert Alan Green (White Plains, NY: Murphy Printing Co., Inc., 1984). Another great reference work.

  13. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    P.s., There are many hallmarks for William A. Rogers, Ltd. See Rainwater, p. 208. I can't tell exactly how many there are, but my initial estimate is that there are more than 12 and fewer than 18. I think that perhaps there are 17 pictured. Hard to tell for sure. miKKo
  14. walksoftly walksoftly, 2 years ago
    Great work miKKo!
  15. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Hi, walksoftly! Thanks so much! miKKo : )
  16. chinablue chinablue, 2 years ago
    Kudos miKKo!! :-)
  17. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    wow! mikko - you've really stepped up to the plate - uh... silverplate - on this one. if you'd like it, i'm happy to send the spoon to you as a gift. i'd like to do that, if it's okay.
  18. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    P.s., That was a great pun - 'stepping up to the silverplate'!!! tee hee
  19. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Thank you kindly, chinablue! I'll be rummaging around for a blue and white cream pitcher now ; ) miKKo
  20. walksoftly walksoftly, 2 years ago
    Nicely played ho2, miKKo will have a nice story to tell as she serves up her baked shortcake & cream.
  21. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    i'll stick it in the mail tomorrow or tuesday. i'll take that silly bend out of it first if you'd like?! that'll make it easier to mail in an envelope.

    haha...
  22. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Thank you so very much ho2cultcha!!! What a lovely gesture, sir! Scandi just sent me a recipe for scones, and I shall make them and serve them with cream - using this ladle. What a lovely gesture....Regards to all, miKKo
  23. ho2cultcha ho2cultcha, 2 years ago
    hello miKKoChristmas11. did you get the ladle? thanks for the gift - totally unexpected and loved!
  24. miKKoChristmas11 miKKoChristmas11, 2 years ago
    Hi, ho2cultcha! Thanks much for your kind message, and for the ladle : D. I watch for the mailman daily. It has not yet arrived, but it will soon! I'll let you know when it arrives. So glad you liked the Victorian Scrap figures! They seemed to fit right in with your other Victorian renderings of Adventurers and Hunters. You have an excellent eye for design, and you've provided us with a library of exotic and charming illustrations. Thank you!!!
  25. chinablue chinablue, 2 years ago
    WOW! You miss a couple of weeks and so much happens! What a wonderful gesture, ho2cultcha. Now we just have to find a blue and white cream picture for miKKo....and take your hammer away to prevent any future 'straightening' ;-)

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