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Trying to Identify WWII German Nazi Dagger and Paperwork - ???

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World War Two570 of 1508FOUND IN A FIREPLACE IN KENTUCKY-NAZI POSTCARDdon't know anything about my grandfather's trench art please help me out
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    Posted 5 years ago

    lostone777
    (37 items)

    I am posting this for a friend who said his uncle gave him this dagger. Supposedly the photo card depicts the man who owned the dagger before a soldier removed it from him. I was just wondering if someone can tell me what kind of dagger this is, and if it looks authentic.

    Maybe someone can also help translate the card that accompanied the dagger?

    Thanks!

    Unsolved Mystery

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    Comments

    1. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Without digging into research Riply, I thought this was the usual army dress dagger?
    2. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      PS: Also, if correct for the owner, his uniform is not Luftwaffe but army.
    3. scottvez scottvez, 5 years ago
      Agree with buss ARMY dagger. The pommel and cross guard are the key features.

      TONS of fakes out there.

      scott
    4. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Scott, I'm so unaccustomed to people agreeing with that I think I am going into shock!
    5. scottvez scottvez, 5 years ago
      Don't worry-- it probably won't happen again anytime soon!

      scott
    6. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Scott, I appreciate the encouragement! LOL!
    7. Chrisnp Chrisnp, 5 years ago
      As for the document, although the photo is mostly illegible, I’m pretty sure by the format and what I can read that this is a death card. If you do a google images search for “WWII German Death Cards” you can see what I mean by the familiar format.

      Death Cards are an old funeral tradition in Germany, and I have several memorializing German KIA from the First World War. The cards were handed out as keepsakes to the family and friends of the deceased, usually at the funeral, but also sent to those who could not attend. The back of the card usually lists his name, rank, unit, home town, and date of death and other particulars, sometimes with a consoling poem or scripture verse.

      Chris
    8. RussTenale RussTenale, 5 years ago
      @ripley ... I know nothing about nothing, but when i read the description, the poster says the story is that this was "removed" from a soldier ... in battle ? ... Then if so, how does a picture get matched up with the dagger at some point ?

      Once again, i have no opinion about this, but just an observation in the text .
    9. RussTenale RussTenale, 5 years ago
      Ok, thanks. I was just thinking about it ... I have no opinion about the dagger ( no knowledge on the subject or most subjects) ... I just thought maybe this photo does not go with the dagger ... "Oh you took this from my relative ? How would you like a picture of him to go along with that ? " Is not logical.
    10. RussTenale RussTenale, 5 years ago
      Ok, thanks. I can not get in the middle of the discussion specifically about the dagger or photo. Just wanted to mention what I observed in the description ...

    11. RussTenale RussTenale, 5 years ago
      I find that sometimes I can be so involved in a project, that I get stuck at some point. Either I have to step away and come back to it, or often someone from a different department will see I am struggling and they will put a fresh pair of eyes on the issue and notice something that was right in front of me all the time.
    12. oldskool oldskool, 5 years ago
      Very cool whatever the argument!
    13. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Every Luftwaffe breast eagle I have ever seen is a flying eagle.
    14. scottvez scottvez, 5 years ago
      Agree AGAIN with buss. It is an ARMY dagger-- the POMMEL and CROSS GUARD are the key elements.

      Not sure what riply is citing-- maybe an item # would help.

      Also to be clear, I made no comments about the uniform in the photo, but agree with russ that the story makes no sense.

      scott
    15. Chrisnp Chrisnp, 5 years ago
      Scot's right. It's Army. No doubt. Although there are variations in coloration, engraving and finish, it is also true that there were standard patterns for both Army and Luftwaffe, and this is the Army pattern.

      Ripley206, if you scroll through the website that you posted, you will see both Luftwaffe and Army patterns, correctly identified. You'll see that in each case the Army dagger pommel and cross guard look like this one, and the Luftwaffe pommel and cross guards do not look like this one.

      Blunder is also correct that the standard Luftwaffe and Army eagles were different. dagger manufacturers did not make those sort of stylistic choices.
    16. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Rip, time we go on a 1st name basis. You can just call me BB2. Lot shorter. I also answer to some other names but they aren't allowed on CW.
    17. lostone777, 5 years ago
      I appreciate all of your responses. I wanted to chime in, but the powers that be at my work frown upon non-work related internet usage. Anyway, my friend said his uncle, whom he hasn't talked to for many years, gave this to him.

      The uncle gave him the ** impression** that the info card depicted the man who owned the dagger and that it was I guess what you might call the "capture paper" or death paper for the owner for the dagger. I'm not saying this is CORRECT, but this is how my friend remembers/interpreted it. (this is going back ten years or so). His uncle could have been a complete kook, or my buddy might have misunderstood him. Well, now he has two young kids and he wanted to find some info to see if he can sell this thing because he doesn't want the kids to get ahold of it, and said he's always found it a little creepy anyway, being that it has a Nazi connection.

      Sorry I don't have more info, or a better photo at this time (it was a spontaneous thing that he asked me to find some info to help him sell it, so the photos were all taken with my cruddy phone-camera), but there it is. If I get the chance, I will post a better shot of the writing to see if someone can translate it, or if the name means anything to someone.
    18. scottvez scottvez, 5 years ago
      This illustrates what is often seen with antiques-- a story that really doesn't pass muster.

      With militaria, it is common to find "stories". Some are an honest mistake or a forgotten/ embellished family tale; while others are a case of deceit (I am NOT saying this item fall into that category) with the goal of increasing VALUE and DESIRABILITY.

      CAVEAT EMPTOR: "Buy the item NOT the story".

      scott
    19. fhrjr2 fhrjr2, 5 years ago
      Someone here is old and has a lick of common sense. Certainly not me but listening and learning can be an advantage.
    20. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      So what do we have? I see an obvious army dress dagger and a pic of a soldier with an army breast eagle. As stated, these patterns were laid out by regulations. This is not something that comes up for a vote. Let's all agree on something! You know my opinion & I stand by it.
    21. scottvez scottvez, 5 years ago
      Never any doubt-- Army dagger.

      This one was easy!

      My caveat was about the STORY associating the TWO items with ONE German soldier and his death.

      scott
    22. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      You know I agree with you Scott on both counts. Got to put the whole tail back on that plane, so will be out of touch probably for a few days. Should have taken pics! Well, when all else fails, - read the instructions! Whenever I fly on the airlines, I think, It's people like me who keep these things in the air. Scary thought that! LOL
    23. fortapache fortapache, 5 years ago
      I am not big on provenance myself. It is the quality of the item.
    24. scottvez scottvez, 5 years ago
      To me there is nothing better than provenance on an item. Actual provenance (DOCUMENTED History) of an item usually will enhance value.

      Fakers know this as well, so many times the "stories" are created.

      scott
    25. Chrisnp Chrisnp, 5 years ago
      I'll spend considerably more for an item with solid provenance than one without any.
    26. Chrisnp Chrisnp, 5 years ago
      Oh, and I do document any oral history that comes with an item, but oral histories are not solid provenance, especially when it comes from a seller who got the item from a friend who got it from his brother-in-law who's father brought it back from the war with this great tale he told. I just write it up as an oral history that was passed along.
    27. RosaChan RosaChan, 5 years ago
      http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/german/blades/army/armyhistory.php
      http://www.militaryantiquesmuseum.com/military_antiques.php?step=20&searchunder=prodid&searchfor=11836
      This is for lostone777
    28. Chrisnp Chrisnp, 5 years ago
      Very nice reference
    29. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      By Jove (whatever that means), I think we are coming around! Now the breast pocket eagle (adler). It is not Luftwaffe, but army. Agreed?
    30. lostone777, 5 years ago
      Yes, that's a great reference. Now I just need him to compare it to those photos and also see if his dagger has any markings on it. Thanks!

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