Posted 4 months ago
LizzyCGB
(23 items)
I was given this by an elderly lady, in her late 80. I dont know where she got it from, but it is from Swansea UK. I wonder if it is a war time dog tag. I've tried to work out the lettering and the name with no luck ...becuase I don't have a clue what I'm doing. If anyone can help me and it is a personal tag, I would try to get it back to its original family ...Thanks all
Hi, LizzyCGB. :-)
"I wonder if it is a war time dog tag. I've tried to work out the lettering and the name with no luck ...becuase I don't have a clue what I'm doing."
I feel ya, because I've been looking into it, and it...ain't easy. >8-0
Here's what I've found so far:
*snip*
I was in Cambridge in the week and popped into G. David's bookshop, emerging a short while later with a coffee table book on the CWGC and Richard van Emden's The Quick & The Dead. In the latter, on page 136, Richard talks about identity discs. I hadn't realised that it was an Army Council Instruction of 1916 that introduced the two discs which most of us will be familiar with: the red circular disc (to be removed in the vent of death) and the octagonal green disc (to be left on the man's body). I thought it might be an idea to provide some brief information on identity discs for the British Army in the run up to and during, the First World War.
January 1907
Army Order 9 states that an aluminium identity disc fitted with a 42 inch cord is to be worn around the neck and underneath the clothing. The disc should contain the soldier's number, rank, name, regiment and religious denomination. A change in regiment or rank would result in a new disc being issued.
May 1907
Army Order 102 introduces slight changes to the above including the dropping of rank. (So if you have an aluminium disc with a soldier's rank on it, you can date it quite precisely).
April 1908
Army Order 83 authorised the issue of discs to Special Reservists and also authorised the dropping of religious denomination on discs issued to men serving with the Territorial Force.
21st August 1914
A new, red/brown disc 35mm in diameter and made of vulcanised asbestos fibre replaces the more expensive aluminium disc. The stamping regulations were the same as those of AO 102 of May 1907. Aluminium discs also continue to be used until stocks run out.
September 1916
Army Order 287 introduces the two disc I referred to at the top of this article. The reason for the introduction was to counteract the problem of identifying men after they had been killed. Although many men (including Vera Brittain's officer fiancé Roland Leighton) purchased their own identity bracelets, these were unofficial. The green disc (referred to as No 1 disc) was to be threaded on a long cord around the neck with the red/brown disc (No 2 disc) threaded on a shorter cord from disc number 1.
*snip*
https://armyancestry.blogspot.com/2014/09/first-world-war-british-army-identity.html
The "PM" at the bottom of the disc apparently stands for "Primitive Methodist" (that was a new one on me):
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/202901-identity-disc-religious-designations/
I would have thought that the "94678" number would have been a unique service number, but I found it in numerous soldiers' records.
Here's a document that shows drawings of the tags:
https://www.cwgc.org/our-work/blog/the-story-of-the-double-dog-tag/
So I think your tag is post-August 1914, but pre-August 1916.
I haven't yet been able to decode "CK" or MX."
D'oh! I just realized that because your disc has the single hole at the bottom, if it had been suspended from a cord or chain, it would have hung upside down.
So, I just dunno. :-(
Here's a Primitive Methodist chapel in Swansea (no longer there, it was bombed during WWII):
https://www.myprimitivemethodists.org.uk/content/chapels/wales/q-z-wales/swansea-jubilee-chapel-pell-street
Dunno if this is anything:
*snip*
CK Cork
*snip*
http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/ww1abbreviations
This one looks right, though:
*snip*
Middlesex Regiment---MX
*snip*
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/6469-official-abbreviations-of-some-regiments/
Oh, and not "94678" but rather "94673." >8-0
This is a bit of a long shot, but this person might be kin:
*snip*
David Allan FRANKLAND
COMPANION WHOLESALE SWANSEA LIMITED (08755366)
Company status
Dissolved
Correspondence address
Wbv Limited, The Third Floor, Langdon House,, Langdon Road, Sa1 Swansea Waterfront, Swansea, United Kingdom, SA1 8QY
Role Resigned
Secretary
Appointed on
29 October 2015
Resigned on
29 October 2017
*snip*
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/Y1g9aqf_l7CqSf4ZdgalOYViXjw/appointments
Keramikos ... Thank you so much, enough reading there to keep me going for a good while. From what I have read the PM is prob Proestant and the CK MK may be related to his blood type. I wish people would not give me puzzles to solve, they know I am a sukcer ...if there is a Frankland out there who fits .. they will have this sooner or later ...Thank you again .... Lizzy
Great information kera! I'd love to see this go back to family. I've tried with other pieces and it's not so easy.
"Keramikos ... Thank you so much, enough reading there to keep me going for a good while."
You're quite welcome. :-)
"From what I have read the PM is prob Proestant and the CK MK may be related to his blood type."
Certainly blood type would be a feature of a modern dog tag; however, I don't see anything in the sources I've dug up so far to suggest that blood type was a feature of the identity discs from the 1914-1916 era.
I have some bad news about that "94673" number. It probably IS a service number; however, it's not unique:
*snip*
Unlike modern military IDs, WWI service numbers were assigned by regiment — not centrally by the War Office — which means the same number could be held by multiple soldiers in different units.
*snip*
https://www.historyrecon.co.uk/guides/understanding-wwi-service-numbers
That's about all I had time for today, as I was out and about doing real life things. I might do some more noodling around the Net tomorrow.
"I wish people would not give me puzzles to solve, they know I am a sukcer"
I feel the fish hook in my own mouth. };-)
dav2no1,
"Great information kera! I'd love to see this go back to family. I've tried with other pieces and it's not so easy."
You are my idol with that thing that you do. };-)
Aight.
I did a search of national archives records for the string "94673." I kept it as wide open as I could, and got 67 records. None of them also contained the string "Frankland":
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=94673&_p=1950%7C1925%7C1900%7C1800&_ps=60
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/2?_q=94673&_ps=60&_p=1950%7C1925%7C1900%7C1800
One more thing you could try is contacting that historyrecon website:
info@historyrecon.co.uk
BTW, I happened to be watching 1949's "The Hasty Heart" today, and true to historical form, actor Richard Todd (he was playing a Scots soldier at the end of WWII) is wearing that style of identity discs:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041445/mediaviewer/rm3629863936/?ref_=ttmi_mi_7
BTW, I happened to be watching 1949's "The Hasty Heart" today, and true to historical form, actor Richard Todd (he was playing a Scots soldier at the end of WWII) is wearing that style of identity discs:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041445/mediaviewer/rm3629863936/?ref_=ttmi_mi_7