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Indian doll - any help appreciated

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German Dolls182 of 264Googly Eye Doll from the early 1900's?german bisque doll maker?
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    Posted 9 years ago

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    Mom gave me this Indian Doll which she got back before I was even created or thought of! The Indian Doll is cool!! She's in a pouch, has real hair, and even carved teeth, and inset eyes that look like they were made seperately. I can't find much of anything on this doll. She has either a number on her back or a letter. If you look at the doll upside down it appears to be a 3. Either a 3, or a capitold cursive "E" maybe. Her foot is stamped Germany.
    I think she's made out of a type of paper mache, but it's solid like, or glazed or something. I have no antique experience.
    Any idea's?

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    1. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      It appears to be celluloid hard to see I need a larger close ip. She has all the typical painting of a German Bisque doll . Dating her from 1920-30 . Was intended to be a novelty doll . Her teeth are inset as he would have a hole on top of head that is covered when they placed eyes which appear to be glass vs plastic . Very nice doll . How tall is she ? She has the look of a Armand Marseille doll . There maybe a mark under her hairline or letters or below what you do see the "E" 0r 3 . That usually is head size number .
    2. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      Typo should say I need a larger close up of face . I am pretty sure it is celluloid a early type that is very hard unlike the 40's dolls . The type you have breaks very easy so be careful .
    3. Missydeb65 Missydeb65, 9 years ago
      Thank you for the speedy reply Manikin!! I noticed you trying to help many others on here with their dolls as well, so a big thank you from everyone!
      I just tried to zoom in on the dolls head for you - how well that'll work I don't know.
      YOU do really know your dolls well, & I say this because I thought the top of this indians doll head had been broke (in perfect circular motion), but since you've spoke of the hole in the head (to place teeth & eyes), I realize that's what that hole-looking-thing is in her head. It's been glued in apparently.
      I just measured her. Inside her pouch she's probably 12 inches, but I'd say the doll itself is 10 inches. Other than that spot on her head, she's in great/excellent condition. Would you have any idea of the approxamite value? Is she worth keeping stored away?
      Thanks again Manikin, you've been more than helpful!
      Hugs from Michigan,
      PS. I don't know how to add the zoomed photo here. I'll search around and get it up asap.
    4. Missydeb65 Missydeb65, 9 years ago
      The "3" is on the 'back' of the doll. It only appears to be a 3 if I have the doll upside down. If I just looked at her back it looks like a backward 3, or a "E" .... just take a 3 (<--- just like that) and flip it around, and if your looking at her turned over it looks like the "e" .....
      As I was giving her a good look-over, I noticed that all her clothing is pinned onto "the doll" itself with what looks to be teeny-tiny nails. I was afraid to pull anything off to look at anymore.
    5. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      Your so welcome . Yes it is a celluloid head on close up . The hole on top of head is supposed to be there . It is not damage . Usually just covered with cardboard pate and wig glued to it .
      Celluloid is one of the first synthetic plastics ever created. It is a plastic created from wood products that includes cellulose nitrate and camphor. First created in 1863, it was a popular material to make items as diverse as jewelry and dolls from the 1870s through the 1930s. Celluloid, however, was not the perfect plastic, since it is flammable and deteriorates easily if exposed to moisture, and can be prone to cracking and yellowing with certain formulations.
      Dates of Production of Celluloid Dolls:

      Some companies experimented with celluloid dolls nearly as soon as celluloid hit the general market. For example, Bru made some of their fashion dolls with celluloid heads, a few of which have survived to today, and other celluloid dolls have been reported from the end of the 1800s. Celluloid dolls were produced as late as the 1950s, but the vast majority were produced from 1900 through the 1940s.
      I have one antique celluloid doll from germany myself . People are reluctant to buy them since they can break so easy and had a tendency to turn yellow . But of coarse yours did not change color . If you want you can take a q-tip with a dab of water and wipe her eyes clean :-) Store were it is not to hot or cold . In today's market she is collectible but price would not be a lot . Under 125.00 and more than 30 dollars is a range she could sell for .
    6. Missydeb65 Missydeb65, 9 years ago
      Well Manikin, your just a handy-dandy, helpful gal, thanks again!
      You've been more than helpful, and it's MORE than appreciated.
      I'll keep her where she's at (in a nice dry, 65-70 degree) cabinet. I've loved this doll since childhood, so finally getting some answers has been wonderful.
      Your super nice, thks again for all the helpful information!
      Deb :)
    7. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      Missy look what I found ! Now I am not sure your's is celluloid . I wish I could reach into PC and touch her . Anyway she is Reffered to as the Scowling Indian
      Look at your dolls feet ect and tell me is she the same as this one ? Remember this is a buy now asking price does not mean it will sell for that I doubt it . Can you mark it to watch to see how it does ?
    8. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      Scowling Indian doll another
    9. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      The more I look at yours I am back at celluloid or painted bisque . Usually color is fired into bisque for face but yours appears painted and not fired in . That was not uncommon in different ethnic dolls faces .
    10. Missydeb65 Missydeb65, 9 years ago
      Howdy again Manikin!
      The first link you sent was AMAZING - looked very similiar to mine over here, but the FEET are identical. They have that painted on/looking shoe. My doll has the exact same color as the 1st link you sent (color of shoes).
      I'm anxious to go and see the 'other' link you sent as well.
      Lastly, please do not be concerned about pricing. Whether she is 50 bucks, or 500 bucks doesn't matter. OTOH (<--On The Other Hand), if she was worth thousands then I might get excited - lol .... she's just special to me and was curious on price range.
      Again, I sat here sorta marveling at the fact that you were doing all this helpful research. I just can't say THANK YOU big enough! Your a "doll" yourself.
      Off to peek at other link. Ohhh, PS. I am certain there is no bisque in this doll. She's more like the paper masche, or wood or something! :-)
      Hugs from Michigan,
    11. Missydeb65 Missydeb65, 9 years ago
      Shoulda waited to peek at 2nd link so I could have included all info in 1 post, but got so excited in seeing the feet identical in first link, I had to respond!!
      That 2nd link you sent certainly looks much like mine too, but clearly I can see where their's is a biscue (sp?) made doll, whereas mine is still more similiar to the first link you sent. As a matter of a fact, you mentioned that I should be careful (in your very 1st post to me) about her fragileness, cracking etc. Yesterday after pulling her out for the 3rd time, I noticed a bit of the glaze had came off the back of her head (super tiny peice), but nevertheless, she has a papery/wood feel, and then a glaze of some kind over the entire doll. It's hard though.
      Mine also doesn't have a "neat" hole in the head as this last photo doll had. Mine looks like it has been taken off before, and then possibly re-glued, and the hair is stuck to part of the re-glue job etc.
      In any case, I believe mine is extremely close (very, very, very close) to 1st link you sent. I'll write down the info on that specific doll to use as refrence to mine. I'll do this because that's the closest thing I've ever seen to mine.
      Goodness, I wouldn't be here now without ALL your help. Like I said, "your a doll" for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thks again Manikin!
    12. Missydeb65 Missydeb65, 9 years ago
      Back again! : 0
      Manikin, I wrote you TWICE, and THEN went and thouroghly looked at all the link pictures you sent (this time with great detail). Got too excited, and I shoulda slowed my roll ................ (I'm not so good at that though - lol)
      Since re-looking at both links, I see that both them dolls are made of biscue (the heads at least). Mine isn't, and I think that's odd. Mine must be made of that cellulite you first spoke of. ??? I really don't know. I do know she isn't biscue. If I had to guess I'd say it was cardboard, or paper masche with a glaze.
      I was really hopeful I could pin my doll on that first link you sent, but not-so-fast Deb, she isn't quite the same. Although, they sure look a lot alike. Same eyebrows for sure. Mine isn't marked as good as either of theirs, but at least I spotted Germany.
      Question for ya ---- on that first link (where I looked at the feet), and mine was so similiar. If you look at a close up of the legs in that picture, you can see pretty good what that dolls legs are made out of - sorta that paper mache LQQK. My doll is made 100% of that. Is a bisque head better off in these types of dolls? Or am I getting a little out of your league asking that? <--- Kinda feel like you know it all - lol lol lol
      As always, Thanks! No rush in answering anything, I'm sure not going anywhere, so take your time!
      Best wishes for a super great day!
    13. Manikin Manikin, 9 years ago
      The legs on first link are made of composition . Does face feel like that ? Her face does not look like compo . It is to smooth . Several companies made scowling Indian and used different material . She is a Antique Scowling Indian doll :-) made as a novelty doll to sell to tourists and import to USA . More as a decorator doll not a play doll .

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