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ANTIQUE SEA TURTLE SHELL, HELP IDENTIFY THIS!!!

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    Posted 8 years ago

    michelleam…
    (59 items)

    Hi Everybody, Glad to be Back, we'll see how much energy I can muster!! This Shell was bought in an Antique Store by my Grandparents in 1943. It is 26"x22". I assumed for my whole life it was a Green Sea Turtle because of the 5 vertebral plates and 4 "scutes"(plates) along each side. After looking at 100's of Green Sea Turtle and Every Sea Turtle, I can't identify this one. I hope it is not extinct, I know this is a little more into the marine Biology and out of Antiques, but what young girl among us didn't want to be a Marine Biologist and some phase, a few years after the Veterinarian stage!! I have missed you all and wish everyone the best, Love, Michelle

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    Comments

    1. Stillwater Stillwater, 8 years ago
      Yeah, you should really be sending these photos to a marine biologist..
    2. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      That's so funny, I just sent out in appeal on FB...is there a marine Biologist in the House??!!About five years after the phase where every girl wants to be a vet, she wants to be a marine Biologist, I did. I am hoping one of my friends stuck to it!!
    3. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Thank you Mssr. Bellin!!
      (That's short for Monsieur)
    4. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Hi Mustangtony, No it is not the Hawksbill. If you google the Sea Turtle ID you will see it is not any of the seven Sea Turtles still in existence. It is closest to the Green Sea Turtle, but if you look at the photos, you will see the neck and tail portions are different. Most have a scoop out area for the Turtles neck, I guess, there are no scooped areas on this one. My Grandparents bought this when they arrived in California in 1943, and it was an Antique then. I think it is easily a couple hundred years old, by the fact that we have never done anything but dust it, it has inperceptible cracks from years of drying slowly, as bone does, or whatever the Shell is. Old sailor (or Pirates, according to my Grandpa) getting fresh meat at sea and the Cap'n brought home a souvenir, who knows. As to the legality, I spent 2 weeks with the Fish and Wildlife Department and sent extreme close ups, told them everything I knew, because I don't want to endanger Sea Turtles, I am a big ole lefty for trees and animals rights...yet I have this incredible piece and want to know about it. The Fish and Wildlife sent me a letter stating that as this Shell existed prior to any lawpast or present, passed that, as such, it was excluded, etc., so if I ever do want to sell it, the letter must accompany it. Wow, this is taking all my energy rather quickly, I was just hoping to learn from this knowledgeable community, after a year fighting stomach cancer, but thanks, I do know THAT MUCH mustangtony, I try to research before I ever come to the Community for help, I am not lazy, love puzzles, don't need to be right all the time. IT is not a Hawksbill, thanks for making a quick, if errant, stab at it, Michelle
    5. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      I LOVE AND SUPPORT GAY PEOPLE RIGHTS, GAY MARRIAGE RIGHTS, LBTG AND SOCIALISTS AND NAKED PEOPLE'S RIGHT'S AND EVERYBODIES RIGHTS, AS WELL AS THE SEA TURTLE AND ANIMAL AND VEGETATION RIGHTS. I try to be a good American, and support everybody's freedoms, and be a good Christian, and not Judge , just walk the walk, instead of talk the talk of Respect for Others, (and their intelligence) Buh Buh
    6. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      HAVE FISH AND WILDLIFE LETTER FROM 2 WEEKS SPENT CORRESPONDING AND SENDING PHOTOS, IT'S OK TO LOOK AT THIS PICTURE, YOU WILL NOT BE ARRESTED, I HAVE A LETTER.
    7. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      I appreciate you trying to protect me. I just get prepared before I come to the Collector Think Tank because you learn a lot more that way. So I have been researching for a month, starting with Fish and Wildlife as I got scared by a store keeper whose reaction was much like yours and so I covered my bases...I try to keep up here, it's a very intelligent crew, don't want to waste anyone's time!! Thanks mustangtony, for the thoughts for my security, I need all the help I can get, Michelle
    8. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      BELLIN IT'S FUN TO WRITE BIG, IT SOUNDS LOUDER!!! YOU ARE FUNNY, HANDSOME, AND HAVE IMPECCABLE TASTE!!! LOVE YOU, MICH
    9. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Hi Mani, this thread is flying for me, but we got all the sordid legal details out of the way!!! Love you darlin', so nice to read your voices and hear your kind and funny thoughts, Mich
    10. Manikin Manikin, 8 years ago
      Welcome back my dear friend and please don't over do yourself ! Promise you need to be concerned about your health . I hope someone can help you with this and they know neither of us has the energy to type to much . God Bless you and stay well . Sorry slow on your emails but I to have to pace myself too. I love your turtle shell and No one is coming to get you unless it is to give you a big hug . xoxoxoxo I need a nap now :-)
    11. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Love you Mani!!
    12. Manikin Manikin, 8 years ago
      Right back atcha :-)
    13. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      Hi Michelle, welcome back!
      Positive thoughts from here down under in the Land of Oz!
    14. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Well I hope it is not extinct, but I fear that it is. It is 26"x22",small for Sea Turtles, but it is hard to believe that a whole species is gone. If you print a picture of this shell you will see what I mean, the Green Sea Turtle, has the 5 plates(vertebral scutes) down the vertebrae and 4 "costal scutes", or plates on each side. The Green Sea Turtle has Vertebral "scutes" that are much wider than these. there are none that have vertebral "scutes"(plates) this narrow. The roundness of the anterior and posterior vertebral plates are also unusual. I looked at a lot of pictures and would get so excited, then realize that the "vertebral scutes" were too thick, or the anterior plate("scute") has a dip where the head comes out, but this is not "scooped looking straight on. Yes, I fear this particular Turtle may no longer exist, that is very, very sad, evolution doesn't go THAT FAST, man has shortened the span of existence, the fate of how many species?? Turtles are and were just too easy a prey for the Nets of the Fishermen, and the Profiteers. I just hope someone will find that the species that wears this Shell is still around and OK!!!!
    15. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Hi Vetraio, I am particularly talkative today for lack of company these last months!!! I can't pert near shut up!! So nice back, it is bringing tears to my eyes...
    16. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      By the way Vet50, I was looking at one particular Sea Turtle that exists only in Oz, Ridley's Sea Turtle??...senior moment, but you all have a beautiful Sea Turtle in Australia, wow, I can imagine diving with these beauties, but I bet a few may have ended in the stew pot before the awareness of their numbers was made known and laws passed.
    17. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      The Olivacea Ridley I think:
      http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspecies.pl?taxon_id=1767
      The smallest of the Australian species.
      There are seven species worldwide and six of them are found in Australian waters.

      Thanks for this post Michelle!
      It brings the issue to the fore.

      http://seaturtlefoundation.org/

    18. Stillwater Stillwater, 8 years ago
      What makes you think its not an Olive Ridley, since I'm sure you've considered that one already. I compared Google images with yours and its pretty darn close. I'd say that's what it is in fact
    19. Stillwater Stillwater, 8 years ago
      See, Vetraio thinks so too
      Thats two votes for Olive Ridley
    20. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      I think Vetraio might be referring to the Sea Turtle I was mentioning that lives only in Australia. Now, Stillwater, go to the Wikipedia, or Sea Turtledentification search and you will see that, of all the Sea Turtles, the Ridleys have the most scutes down the sides. Now look at my shell and not the shape of the vertebral plates(5 of them) and the shape of the anterior plate("scute"), and you will see that the only Sea Turtle with Five Vetebral plates and 4 "costal scutes"(plates down the side, is the Green Sea Turtle, but if you look at the Green Sea Turtle, you will see the "vertebral scutes"(plates) are much wider than the vertebral scutes on my Shell. Then the Anterior Plate, where the head comes out, the plate on mine is unlike any of the seven species. One thing, for sure, is that only the Green Sea Turtle and my Shell have 5 Vertebral Plates and 4 plates on each side. We will ccall them "scutes" to use the proper terminology!!
      Vet50, I love the link you posted, Thank you!! I didn't realize 6 of the 7 existing Sea Turtles live in Australia, I think I would love Australia. Is the Sea Turtle an Important Symbol to the Indugenous Aborigene's? Or the Maori? It seems that I have heard of Turtle Gods at land's End??
    21. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Just checked, the Olive Ridley and Ridley have 8 vetebral scutes and 8 costal scutes, so way too many for this shell. (Translated, the Olive Ridley has eight plates down the vertebrae and eight down each side, 24 plates total,) my shell has 13 Plates, or "scutes". Start with the Green Sea Turtle which under charts that show all the patterns, is the only one to also have 13 scutes, five down the vertebrae and 4 on each side.
    22. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      The Turtle man was out gathering food when he saw the lizard man's wife named Oola and her three children digging yams. Wayamba decided he would like a wife and family, so he took them home.

      When Wayamba's tribe saw what he had done they were very angry. They approached the Turtle man and said, "You are going to be punished for this." and the Turtle man laughed. Early next morning he saw the fury of his tribe as they showered him with spears.

      Wayamba chose the two biggest shield that he had , one slung on his back and one on his front. As the spears came whizzing through the air, Wayamba drew his arms inside the shields and ducked his head down between them. Shower after shower of weapons they slung at him and they were getting closer so that his only chance to get away was to dive into the creek, and the tribe never saw him again. But in the water hole where he had dived, they saw a strange creature which had a plate fixed on it's back. When they tried to catch the creature, it drew in it's head and limbs. So they said, "It's Wayamba." And this was the beginning of Wayamba or Turtles, in the creek.

      http://www.kullillaart.com.au/default.asp?PageID=52

      http://www.kunwinjku-aboriginal-art.com/kunwinjku-dreamtime-story.html
    23. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      Turtle (Budgial), Goanna (Gunual), and Fish (Gugu)

      Before there were animals there was only people.

      There was a man named Budgial, a man named Gunual, and they were both in love with a girl named Gugu.

      The turtle man, Budgial, his totem represented common sense and love.

      Because he loved Gugu, he brought her flowers and sweet fruits; he watched the sun go down with her, he listened to her talk and he held her.

      One day the girl was getting teased by a bunch of people. So she asked the Turtle man to go and frighten them. When the turtle went to fight, he befriended them. She wasn't happy with the outcome so she went to see Goanna man.

      The Goanna man’s totem is strength, power and greed. When she told the goanna man what had happened he went down to the river and he bashed them. Then he came back and told her what he did so she went home with him. Every day he brought her a big amount of food to show her how strong he was and what a great hunter he was.But he would never show her love because he felt that it was very weak, so she didn't like that about him.

      He gave her a spear, when she threw it she missed and he was very angry. He chased after the spear and she ran down to the river to find the turtle man.

      When she found the turtle man she told him that goanna man was going to hit her, so he cuddled her and told her that everything would be ok.

      The goanna man followed her footprints and found the turtle man holding his woman, so he said to the turtle man, "I'm going to kill you that is my woman." The turtle man held up two shields and then jumped into the water. When he was in the river the goanna man threw spears at him but the shields stopped the spears from killing him. Then he changed himself into a turtle. This is how the turtles became. The goanna man had seen him change from a man into a turtle and though he was the devil. So he ran back to the desert believing that all devils live in water.

      Till this day that is why the goanna lives in the desert and is very strong and powerful.

      The turtle lives in the water and if you ever see one they will swim away or go into their shell.

      And the girl who is the fish Gugu also lives in the water with the turtle.
    24. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Vet 50 , that was such a cool story, it reminds me of being a kid, we are never too old for the Storytellers!! EXPERT FLASH ALERT, EXPERT FLASH ALERT, Vetraio I wrote the guy on the link you provided, Dr. Wallace J. Nichols and he responded immediately and said that this is a Green Sea Turtle, but that it appears that the "outer layer has been removed, exposing bony shell, and that the sutures have been highlighted, and then he said it was a great momento of my grandpa, what a nice person!! I think I have to move to Australia, do you have Socialized medicine???
    25. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Vetraio, it won't let me go to the aboriginal art page, but you can link all you want, so far your links have been a goldmine. I LOVE the Aboriginal and Native History and Creation Stories of anywhere, so beautiful and poetic!!
    26. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      Hi!
      Can you remove #29?
      I think it is this:
      http://pinterest.com/dewdropwilson/the-dreaming-aboriginal-art/
    27. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Vet you are the best, a collector and a storyteller. May I ask from whence your people hail, originally? I was born in Dublin Ireland and my Dad was French Pied Noir, and unbeknownst to him till his 50's, his Mother was Arabic. Your storytelling reminds me of the Irish Side of the family, when we would pass time it wasn't in front of the TV but by music or storytelling. I have to return to my story, I swear I could listen to Creation stories 24/7, if I could throw in my B&W films of the 20's and 30's, especially pre-code!! Et le film noir, bien sur!! I'm in a hurry to get back to muy story above of before there were animals there were only people... LOVE STORIES!!! Maybe a illustrated book Vetraio? For the retirement fund??
    28. Stillwater Stillwater, 8 years ago
      Yes, turtle and tortoise shells have a dark layer ontop of a bony shell, they come off as it dries. I know this because I had one of my desert tortoises die and its plates came off revealing white bone underneath.

      After looking around, its a green sea turtle. Doesn't matter if its slightly different or this part is wider or that part is thinner. Turtles do not come from a factory, there is natural variation in their shells.

      http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/294159-two-more-sick-turtles-found-in-phuket/

      Look there, second picture down. Its the same shell you have. I can't deal with the walls of unbroken text so if you don't think its right, you don't need to say anything
    29. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      What a beautiful Creation Love Story, they just fly off your tongue, it is SO entertaining, to me, I think others feel the same. Vetraio, you really ought to put together these stories, like poems, and we will will give a percentage of sales to the turtle foundation of Oz, to save the kind and gentle Budgial...don't ask where the "we" comes into your book sales!!!
    30. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      Great news from Dr. Nichols!
      Socialized medicine is an historically pejorative term in the United States, no?

      Since 1984 we have had Medicare. It co-exists with private health cover.
      Medicare funds free universal access to hospital treatment and subsidised out-of-hospital medical treatment. It is funded by a 1.5% tax levy on taxpayers with incomes above a threshold amount, an extra 1% levy on high income earners without private health insurance, as well as general revenue.

      Here's an article on Health Care in Australia:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia
    31. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      OMG Vetraio, the Pinterest Link is Out of Sight(am I dating myself?? arrr , arrr, "take my wife, no really"!!) who the heck is dana dewdrop, wow, that is the most beautiful page I have ever seen, OMG, why is Australia suddenly seeming like paradise, I know my paradise has socialized medicine!!! And, yes, in America the term "Socialized Medicine" is usually coupled with, "Go back to Russia"!! We used to emphasize education as a nation.....
    32. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      My background is Anglo/Celtic. Drogheda in Eire, Bristol in England. Grew up in the suburbs here in Sydney surrounded by Italians. Loved Latin and French at school and taught LOTEs in high schools as part of the 70's focus on multiculturalism. So much to learn and so little time!
    33. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      Hey they are not my tales! I added the attributions. I'm no story teller believe me!
      I love these tales about the Dreamtime! 60,000 years of history here in Australia. The indigenous people have a wealth of knowledge that they will share if you ask them.
    34. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Bellin, we solved our Puzzle de Jour!!! Thanks to Stillwater , coming in with the hard evidence, backed up by Doctor Wallace J Nichols, of the foundation Vetraio linked us to. I LOVE the Collector's Weekly Think Tank, all we need to do iis put our heads together. thank you Stillwater for the Link, perfect, I might just print that picture to accompany the Shell.
    35. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      I am someone who lived a long time off the grid in the mountains of France and could easily go back to well water and Wood Stoves and ingenuity!! I have always felt a kinship to indigenous people, it comes through my Mom, who defended AIM as a lawyer here, but it was earlier than that, when I started with Religious Studies in School, and only the Polymorphic Model appealed to me, because of the absolute inability of the wee human brain to understand creation, it is safer for humans to have many smaller Gods, lest we delude ourselves into thinking we are God because we have defined him in our image!!!!
    36. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      Bellin, you all always help. I have solved so many lifetime mysteries at this Think Tank, that is why, as I said, I prepare before coming because I am with people who love knowledge as much as I do, and are entertained by Puzzles and Mysteries and Solving them.
    37. michelleamieux michelleamieux, 8 years ago
      If I knew what I do now ehen I was 20 I would come to Australia and try to listen to those stories of the Aborigines, because that is the world I like to reside in, Dreamtime, as you call it, where 60,000 years is a day and an eternity.
    38. vetraio50 vetraio50, 8 years ago
      Google "Emily Kame Kngwarreye"
      Check out the other names there too!

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