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Bottles1886 of 7009Michigan Bottling Co., MuskegonROBERT EMMERSON JUNIOR NEWCASSTLE SPIRIT FLASK
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    Posted 4 years ago

    Karenoke
    (100 items)

    I broke down and cleaned some of the grime off of this bottle.
    After many hours of research with SpiritBear giving me tips on what to look for....Thank you SpiritBear! I now believe this bottle to be rather important in American glass making history.
    It was made from an iron mold in pieces and put together. At Clyde Glass Works of Clyde N. Y. However, Clyde Glass Works done business under many other names before this one. In the history of the Hotchkiss peppermint oil company there are two glass makes listed, the first one is Ely Glass Works and the other is F. E. Reed Glass Co. But after much research I found where the Society for Historical Archaeology Inc. has a lengthy write up on glass makers of Clyde N. Y. and the write up makes it clear that both glass companies listed in Hotchkiss peppermint oil history are all the same just with many different business partners over the years.
    Most interestingly, the write up about Clyde N. Y. glass makers is primarily about the first Mason jars being made there, or at least some of the first Mason jars.
    As for exactly when this bottle was made, all I'm sure of is after 1851 because that's the year they won the awards mentioned on the label. And if I understand and remember correctly, the use of iron molds started fading out around 1865-1880.....I think. Too much info for my brain to remember everything...lol

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    Comments

    1. SpiritBear, 4 years ago
      Your bottle is a "3-piece mold" bottle (horizontal shoulder seam, vertical seams on side), seen up to the 1920s (some even machine-made). Then it gets really weird with some of the molds, but that's another story.
      As it features an applied top and is likely American-made, it shouldn't date after the 1880s.
      My feeling is still 1860s-1870s on it, putting the bottle at over 140 years old.
      Some companies used the award seals upwards of 50 years after they were granted, albeit they usually stopped within 30 years.
    2. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      I agree with everything you said. And I read your comment from the other post as well. So I guess I need to go back and research the Hotchkiss company again as I'm not great at remembering so much too quickly. But it's amazing how much I've learned about bottles and know the surface isn't scratched.
      I've not heard from Heckler, and I suspect you are right about them. Have you ever looked at their page? They show lots of bottles (they claim) sold for thousands over what they claim to have thought they would bring. And I think I told you about the only bottle like mine I can find on the internet is one they sold in 2007.
      Either way though I'm making an eBay account. I enjoy finding old stuff and researching it till I figure it out. But many things still leave me stumped. But because I enjoy thrift store, estate sale and auctions I have wayyyy too much clutter.
    3. SpiritBear, 4 years ago
      I've seen different auction house pages. If you can get two or more people who really want the item, just sit back and relax. LOL.
      Read this article I wrote on how to research using search engines:
      https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?686523-On-Using-Search-Engines-for-Research
    4. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      Oh wow, thank you SpiritBear!
      I'm gonna read this here right shortly. I so appreciate you leading me in the right direction of research about this. I find all kinds of stuff to research and find most answers, but with your gentle pushes I feel as if I've really learned something about this bottle. And on one hand I'm in no hurry to sell it, but on the other hand...my husband thinks I have way to much junk, and he's umm, umm right. So I'm looking forward to showing him I do good sometimes. But I have no clue as how to sell this and get the most I can....I'm due for an....I told you so moment. But I'm just smart enough to know when someone knows more than I, and you are clearly that someone. And you have done so much to help me already that I'm gonna take your advice and go slow for the maxamin dollar I can fetch for this. But I'm probably gonna bug you some more after I get my feet wet on eBay. I may end up owing you the equivalent of a finders fee when all is said and done.
    5. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      Oh wow SpirirBear!
      I've been so impressed by all the knowledge several people here on CW have, and your article on search engines is pure genius! I'm sure you don't think so, but I've never heard anyone even mention the ability to cancel words from a search. I though maybe I'm less computer savvy than I though, but my son was impressed as well. And he's fairy bright with these things. A big Thank You from us both!
      And BTW, I got a response from Heckler's. The fee is 15% which is less than I expected. But I was surprised by their lack of knowledge about the bottle.
      I'm gonna see if I can copy and paste it here for you to read. I'm imbarrassed by my lack of knowledge, but I don't claim to be knowledgeable about much of really anything. But I expected them to know a little more....lol
      Hope it's ok to share what they wrote, as there is an appraisal in it.
    6. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      On Friday, March 3, 2017, 3:32 PM, Nicole Puhlick <nicole@hecklerauction.com> wrote:

      Dear Karen,

      Thank you for your inquiry. We are aware that you have many options to sell your bottle. We are familiar with the bottle and the label and have sold numerous examples that came out of the Kris Kernozicky collection.

      Your bottle is old and probably made at the Mount Vernon Glass Works. But this bottle is all about the label. We find your bottle very interesting in that it has not been cleaned nor has the label been disturbed. We would estimate that the value of the bottle with the label as we can see it in our email would bring $350-700 at auction unless there is an unusual hint of color. Our consignment rate is 15%. There are no other charges.

      We are pleased to discuss this further with you if you would like to continue this conversation.

      Sincerely,
      Norman Heckler, Sr.

      Seems they didn't want to say it's not special because it's only a utilitarian bottle.
      But the Mt. Vernon part surprised me, you?
    7. SpiritBear, 4 years ago
      I'm not sure if the bottle would bring that on e-Bay. If they can guarantee it will sell for that, I'd say go for it and pack it well with $150 or more insurance (U.S.P.S.).
      In your first month with e-Bay under a seller account, they will give you different offers, such as List 3 Items Free Before such and such date. You could try a Buy it Now price for a few weeks like that, with no loss to you.
    8. SpiritBear, 4 years ago
      Oh, as for where it was made, it would only surprise me if it were a Stoddard, as the colour is not correct for them.
    9. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      So SpiritBear, you agree they didn't take a good look before stating where they thought it may have come from?
      Thanks
    10. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      I was poking around the auction house site I contacted, and see where they sold a very similar bottle last November. And it sold for around 300.00 and I think I mentioned already but I seen my exact bottle sell by them in 2007 for a tad over 550.00 what I'm thinking is....the market is way down on everything. I mean honestly, you can pick up perfect condition McCoy and Hull pottery pieces for a dollar these days. Leaving me to believe the market will get better as our country gets better and stronger. And with that in mind and all the information you have provided leading me to what I'm content is it's true history I think I'm going to let it sit in the back of my china cabinet hidden from the light (bottom shelf) and wait for the market to rebound (I hope) and then check my options then.
      It's not like I have any real money in it, I was after the advertising ashtrays. But I think I'd be cutting myself short to sell it right now.
      Looking forward to your thoughts SpiritBear?
      And I wanted to ask, when they suggested my bottle being made at Mount Vernon Glass works, that would make it a Stoddard?
      And looking over all that I've told you of my research I realize I never really said what I learned. But the Hotchkiss company was located in Lyons N. Y. and their company history mentions the use of two different glass makers being used in near by Clyde N. Y. The first was Reed and later Ely. So after hours of searching, I found an article about the history of Clyde Glass Works, turns out the history of Clyde Glass Works includes Reed and Ely at the same point in history that this bottle would have been made. So I'm confident about this being the maker, and 1878 being the latest date it could have been made due to when Ely left.
      So I feel certain it's not a Stoddard from Mount Vernon.
      Thank you!
    11. SpiritBear, 4 years ago
      No, if it were Stoddard, I'd be surprised. I don't know much on individual mid-1800s glassworks, but Stoddard is the main stand-out one. All others made bottles pretty similar to one another; it is too difficult, in my opinion, to track one down; one can narrow it, such as by research or locality to the company.
      As for the bottle, I don't speculate on the market's future. Porcelain and furniture have long crashed into little value. Bottles are maintaining value for now, but the number of collectors is shrinking (they are literally dying off. I am the only one under 35 [I'm 20] in our local club of mostly 60+). The modern (younger, in general) America cares little for antiques. It will be other countries that are still developing financially (Mexico) that, when they work their problems out, will begin to spend their money on such needless but interesting things as antiques and collectibles. America is mostly into advancement now, rather than the past.
      It won't hurt to hold it for a few years, albeit Donald Trump will either help or ruin the economy further depending on what happens under America's new ruler.
      For keeping the bottle safe: Keep humidity at about 50 %. Too high, and the label rots. Too dry, and it disintegrates. Do not put even in indirect sunlight, or under any harsh lights. Do not wrap in plastic, as that is often acidic or will trap moisture in, thus deteriorating the label. Do not try to clean the label. Do not let it near chemicals. Breathing on it is also damaging due to moisture in our breath. Do not touch it. Etc. It was never meant to last this long. As such, it is a fragile thing.
    12. Karenoke Karenoke, 4 years ago
      Thanks SpirirBear!
      Most of what you say of how to take care of it, I had kinda figured as much. And with the label being the only part that gives it any value I really think it needs to be handled with gloves on. As for humidity. As you likely know, Florida's humidity is some of the worst in the nation, if not the worst.
      As for the younger generation having no interest in antiques and collectibles, I think it greatly depends on what they grew up around. My oldest child has no interest to speak of. However my son 27 is greatly interested, and loves to go thrift store shopping with me. Both raised around my interest, but simply different people. My step son 28 blames me for his addiction to vintage stuff and I've been in his life for 13 years. So I think it simply depends on what they grew up around or have been subjected to. I have my stepsons daughters full time, and they are interested. They found some "federal law prohibits" bottles on the edge of the marsh/creek we live on, and they are so proud of their first vintage finds....lol
      Thanks for all your help!
      I'll keep you posted on what, if anything I do with my bottle. But for now, it's in my cabinet where I see it staying for a good while.

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