Posted 2 years ago
Jeffers
(1 item)
Today I had a close look at my husband's very tarnished baby cup. I thought it was silver, but I couldn't get the tarnish off. The inside improved somewhat with cleaning and it's a copper colour, but there are still grimy spots on it.
The pictures on the cup are--moving left to right--children parading and playing musical instruments, led by a drummer who is a grownup. He has a large nose and is wearing a coat with tails and one of those hats with three points, though only two points show...definitely from a different era. The picture to the drummer's right is of an elephant, followed by a big-nosed boy with a stocking cap, sitting in front of a wagon labelled Punch & Judy. There's a female child in the wagon, maybe Judy? My husband's name is engraved in the cup and whereas the outside colour of the cup is a shiny dark gray, the engraving shows up copper coloured. Ditto with the bottom of the cup.
There's an inscription on the bottom of the cup. I think it says Victoria on the first line.
LP copper on the second line, and B.M. Moon T5(?) on the third. 4th line is 6.3. Can you tell me more about this cup and when it would have been made?
My husband was born in 1956. I'm guessing this may be an antique that was gifted to him and that the engraving of his name dates to soon after he was born.
Beautiful baby cup, love the engravings
Hi, Jeffers. :-)
This looks like it (yes, the famous Punch and Judy puppets):
*snip*
Vintage from the 1910s
Materials: silver, copper
This vintage Punch and Judy themed baby or child drinking cup is made of silver plated copper, and is manufactured in Canada by B.M. mounts. The cup is in excellent condition with no major dings or dents. This cup features exciting scenes of children marching with a fife, drums, and flag, an elephant, and Punch pulling Judy in a wagon. It's wild!
The cup measures almost 2.25" tall and is 2.75" in diameter not including the handle.
*snip*
https://www.etsy.com/listing/539200873/victorian-punch-and-judy-silver-plated
There's a picture of the underside, and it's engraved with:
VICTORIAN
PLATE
E. P. COPPER
B. M. MOUNTS
MADE IN CANADA
63
*snip*
EP Copper means electroplated silver over copper, and I believe that the BM Mounts means that the mounted pieces (the feet and handles) are made of britannia metal.
*snip*
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9798
Just a bit of corroboration on that "BM MOUNTS" business:
*snip*
SP Copper
Silver Plate Over Copper
BM MTS
This means Britannia Metal Mounts
A mixture of tin, alimony and copper
*snip*
https://silverben.wordpress.com/silverware-markings/
So the body of the cup is electroplated silver over copper, but the handle is Britannia.
Interesting..I've never seen the BM Mounts stamp before..learned something new..thanks Keramikos!
dav2no1, You're welcome, but I only learned of it myself in researching the item in this post.
Now the mystery is the maker, because "Victorian Plate" seems not to be a company name, but rather a process, like Old Sheffield Plate
https://karas.co.uk/a-history-of-electroplating/
https://www.justinteeantiques.com/news-info/old-sheffield-plate/
http://www.jamesbaldwinantiques.com/stock.php?CategoryID=14
I couldn’t help but notice something….regarding the info in the snip in comment #3 about the BM MTS…..the “mixture of tin, alimony and copper”….shouldn’t that be “mixture of tin, antimony and copper”?
I had to resort to the dictionary on that! :^)
Thank you, one and all, for all your valuable comments and for including links to substantiate what you shared! I can't believe how quickly you solved this mystery! Now I need to put on my genealogy hat and try to identify whose cup this was originally. Unfortunately, the people who knew who it belonged to originally passed on quite some time ago.
One more question for all of you. What would you recommend that I use to clean the cup further? A mixture of baking soda and vinegar took away some of the inside stains, but there are still more to be removed. This mixture didn't touch the tarnish on the outside, though it may have given it some shine. The cup remains a very dark grey.
You can try this method. Make sure upu don't try to polish it, the electoro plate can be thin .
https://www.hunker.com/12340731/cleaning-silver-with-aluminum-foil-vinegar
Watchsearcher, "[A]limony" as opposed to "antimony." *wheeze*
I didn't even notice that. Why do I suspect it was some kind of spell check suggestion, and the original content creator failed to notice? Maybe because the original content creator had alimony on the brain? };-)
I used their "Contact Us" form to let them know.
keramikos, I figured the word was “helpfully” spelled by a computer. Maybe the author was subconsciously dwelling on alimony
>dread< {:^(
I’m glad you contacted the author….that didn’t occur to me.
Jeffers, You're welcome. :-)
It latterly occurred to me that you might not be familiar with Punch and Judy, so here is some background:
https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/thats-the-way-to-do-it-a-history-of-punch-and-judy
A little mood music:
XTC - Ball and Chain - "Punch and Judy"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXR0QXvYtoE
I still wonder about the images on the other side of the cup. I was tempted to think it might be some variant of the Pied Piper (the adult figure leading the children on your cup is playing a drum rather than a pipe).
Here's some background on the Pied Piper:
https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20200902-the-grim-truth-behind-the-pied-piper
Yes indeed, put on your genealogy hat. Somebody within your family or circle of family friends gifted your husband with this old cup, freshly engraved with his name when he was a baby. :-)
CW user dav2no1 is quite right about electroplate being thin, and the coating on your cup could well be past recovery. You can try that aluminum foil/vinegar trick, but be advised that it not only might not help, it might make things worse.
To me, your options are:
1. Enjoy this family heirloom as is.
2. Have it professionally replated.
I'm going to enjoy this family heirloom as is.
Jeffers, That's probably prudent. :-)
I'm sorry that I couldn't seem to find the maker. There is actually a lot of stuff marked "Victorian Plate EP Copper" out there, but no information about the actual maker.
However, I did uncover a clue: there are also more than a few pieces out there labeled "Marlboro Plate EP Copper," and "Marlboro Plate" apparently was a trade name:
*snip*
Marlboro Plate was a trade name used by Morton-Parker. It was based out of Ontario, Canada. They first used the trade name around 1945 and were around until about 1970. They specialized in Old English style reproductions.
*snip*
https://www.justanswer.com/antiques/i5o1m-dianaf-10-silver-plated-tea-set-tea-set.html
I suspect that "Victorian Plate" might also be a trade name.
How that Etsy vendor identified the vintage of their Punch & Judy as 1910s, I don't know.
If you wanted to be super anal-retentive, the 1910s should be the Edwardian era, not the Victorian era, but if some company had trade-marked a name, they probably weren't inclined to stop using it just because the British throne had changed hands.
Here's a Victorian Plate EP Copper piece (with a plated lead handle instead of one made from Britannia Metal) that the vendor describes as being of 1903 vintage:
*snip*
Here is an antique Victorian Plate EP Copper, Lead Mo. 37, footed creamer made in Canada around 1903.
*snip*
https://jewelcreek.ca/products/antique-victorian-plate-ep-copper-creamer-made-in-canada
Finally, on the subject of the imagery of the adult drummer leading children:
You're quite right that the adult drummer is wearing a tricorne hat, which suggests a story of 18th century vintage, because that was the heyday of the tricorne:
*snip*
“Before large wigs became popular for men during the late seventeenth century, low-crowned, large-brimmed, plumed, or feathered, hats were worn. As wigs increased in size, plumes disappeared and the brims of hats were cocked up. When the brim was folded up in three places, the hat became a tricorne, a three-cornered hat. Generally dark in color, tricornes were often edged with a gold braided trim after about 1675. Worn with one point forward, the tricorne hat emerged as the most fashionable hat for men in the late seventeenth and most of the eighteenth century. To be most stylish, men cocked, or tipped, their tricornes to one side or another. The origins of the tricorne hat go back to the battlefield, when soldiers wearing broad-rimmed hats pinned the sides up in order to channel rainwater away.”
*snip*
https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/tricorne-hat/