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Czech 'Frog Legs' Thorn Vase

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Bohemian Art Glass4225 of 6436Czech:  Chipped Ice / Glue Chip Blue and Green VaseGlass Flask with plug, enamel, Alps region 18 or 19 century?
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    Posted 7 years ago

    sklo42
    (792 items)

    Green glass, cased in clear with with five clear feet and many clear thorns. It has a cut rim and according to some that makes it Czech......the British ones having rounded rims. I don't know how true this is. At the rim the vase has six sides.

    Does seem neat that a Frog Legs Vase should be green!! In reality the vase is slightly paler than the photos.

    Height 20 cm./8 inches

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    Comments

    1. inky inky, 7 years ago
      I have just won two vases just like yours but! in a different decor and I thought mine might have been by 'Welz'...how tall are yours may I ask?...:-)
    2. welzebub, 7 years ago
      Truitt I, pg 131 – fig 3, shows an example of a Welz vase in a thorn/tube style. This would be a strong starting point indicating that Welz actually produced tubes/thorn/stick style vases in at least some quantity.

      In my own personal collection I own two examples of the same shape vase as shown in Truitt. My examples are in decors tied to Welz production through at least 2 other distinctive shapes. In my opinion, this certainly reinforces Truitt’s assertion that the tube vase is Welz.

      Additionally, there is an ad in Butler Brothers from 1929 which shows a grouping of 14 Welz pieces, excluding a similar vase to above. I have matched 13 of the pieces shown in the group to known Welz examples in the same shapes and decors as the line art. I have also matched one of the shapes in the Butler ad to known Welz factory documentation. In this Butler ad showing Welz production as a group, there is actually a vase in a “Frog Leg” design offered as a product in the assortment.

      Although the vase is slightly different from this example, the “Frog Leg” vase in the Butler grouping is extremely similar. At a minimum, if the link to Kralik can be supported, I believe that it indicates that both Welz and Kralik made “Frog Leg” vases. I am not aware of any documentation regarding the Kralik link to the “Frog Leg” form other than 2 Butler ads referenced in the post linked in the comment above this one. They do not appear in Kralik Butler monographs from the West Virginia Museum of Glass, nor in the Hosch Catalogs showing some Kralik production. The frog leg form does not appear in a Butler ad with other known Kralik production either.

      I think it is safe to say that Welz did produce a product similar to these. Is this pair Welz? I certainly cannot say for sure at this point.

      Can Welz be ruled out as a possible source of the frog leg vases? Absolutely not. Quite the contrary…. I believe them to be a strong contender as the production house.

      The second ad image in the link directly above is actually cropped from the Butler Ad I am referring to showing Welz shapes and decors.

      In that post it is referenced as showing a piece of Kralik production. I would obviously disagree with that assessment.

      Hope this helps.

      Great vase….. and I love the color….. a very distinct green!!
    3. welzebub, 7 years ago
      The Butler ad I am referencing above as showing Welz production contains 15 items with the Frog Leg vase included in the count, and 14 pieces excluding that form.
    4. welzebub, 7 years ago
      Imagine my shock that you completely disagree with me. :-)

      So are you saying Truitt is wrong about the tube vase they show? It is not Welz, but Harrach?

      My findings I have discussed here are that the assortment in Butler that the image in the link is cropped out of is a Welz assortment, and that the vase shown there is actually a "Frog Leg" thorn vase. So my position would be that there is at least a smattering of evidence to support the concept that Welz did indeed make at least some thorn vases, and they made some similar to the form shown here........ In which case it would seem that once again we have a disagreement regarding Welz production.... and once again I am completely shocked and amazed :-)

      "Butler Brothers catalogs never give the manufacture. Those catalogs are great for provenance research. That is it."

      So are you stating you are of the belief that the only value to the Butler catalogs is the ability to determine what country the glass came from (provenance)? Doesn't that fly in the face of the Kralik attributions based on Butler you seem to be supporting?

      According to one of the the West Virginia Museum of Glass Butler Monographs, it has been found that assortments of glass were offered in some instances in factory packed barrels, and if you can identify pieces in an assortment, you can identify the source of the assortment as far as the production house goes. (I can provide the monograph number and the quote if you would like) I have spent several years matching both Welz and Kralik products to a variety of ad assortments shown in the Butler Monographs. Although I have yet to match every piece in every ad, I have completed a number of them and I can unequivocally state that I have yet to find a Butler offering of Czech art glass that contains products that can be linked to two companies in one assortment. So far they have been Welz production or Kralik production in the identifiable groups I have looked at. Some of them are also not distinct enough so as to determine the pieces or the house. Some of them are clearly Kralik, such as the ones that show all Bambus examples...... and some of them are clearly all Welz.

      I completely agree that the Butler Monographs are great for provenance if all you are looking to do is identify which country exported the goods Butler offered in art glass. They state that clearly in most cases for Bohemian / Czech glass.

      I have personally found that they are also a fabulous tool for those trying to look deeper into the information that may not be quite so obviously determined. That is all I have attempted to do, and I think I have been reasonably successful thus far.

      I simply stated my own findings regarding these products and their possible relationship to this collectors vase..... and if asked, I will provide additional information to clarify my opinion. That is all I am here to do. I am simply providing a different opinion and set of facts than the ones I see put forth on occasion. I think people in the forum deserve to read more than one point of view when available.

      I am of the opinion that people in this forum can evaluate the information that is made available to them and make up their own mind.

      And I will repeat to be clear, I am not saying, and did not say, that this is a Welz vase. I am simply commenting and providing information to counter the position which was stated early on:

      "As far as Welz goes, I do not see it."

      I thought collectors may appreciate hearing a different point of view different than that one. I am simply saying that there is evidence to support the possibility that they did produce it..... and also evidence to support the concept that they produced quite similar vases, if not this exact shape. Readers can decide for themselves, if they even really care.
    5. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Hi inky, of course you may ask:-) I've added size etc. to the original 'post' to save you scrolling down for it. Look forward to seeing yours.
    6. inky inky, 7 years ago
      Thank you sklo42....hopefully should be here Saturday or Monday...can't wait to see them, they are the same size as yours....:-)
    7. SEAN68 SEAN68, 7 years ago
      love it sklo no matter , whom made it , it is stunning vase !!
    8. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thank you, SEAN, you're view is refreshing:-)
    9. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thank you, leahpia, for providing the link to a red version of my green thorn vase.
    10. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thank you Czechman for the love and the comment.
    11. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thank you welzebub, indeed a very distinctive shade.......nothing you,d find in nature!
    12. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thyank you, GlueChip. IanBrighton, surfdubb, mikelv, vetraio, VioletOrange, Moon......, AnneLanders, racer, smiata, Michelleb and charlie, for the loves.
    13. welzebub, 7 years ago
      Sklo42 You can delete comment 14 if you would like as that post was deleted. It has been reposted here:

      http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/139281-butler-brothers-ads--an-interesting-ear?in=activity

      This information may be of some help in understanding my position on the discussion of a possible attribution of this green vase:
    14. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thanks for the love, cactuscorner.
    15. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thanks, Manikin, for the love.
    16. cactuscorner cactuscorner, 7 years ago
      You are very welcome! I really love the color and shape of this piece :)
    17. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Pleased you like it so, cactuscorner.
    18. sklo42 sklo42, 7 years ago
      Thank you welzebub for the love. See you've cleared the gremlins from your 'roadmap' post!!
    19. welzebub, 7 years ago
      Yes, It is all cleared up now..... thanks..... and I simply provided the full image on my website with a link directly to that website page in the comments. Real easy to do that way instead, and makes the image more meaningful.
    20. Vintagefran Vintagefran, 6 years ago
      Hi Peggy. I must have missed this one. Glass Frogs legs! I've never seen or heard of such a thing. Lol. I have a green thorn vase, whose colour looks very similar to yours here. I'll see if I can find it to post for comparison. It was relegated to a box some time ago when I found out it wasn't uranium. Now I'm thinking it deserves another look. So thanks for posting :) great info too!
    21. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      No probs,Fran, I'll look out for yours!
    22. welzebub, 6 years ago
      "Classified as British in many books, but DEFINITELY NOT WELZ!"

      I would have to strongly disagree with that statement. Although no one said it was definitively Welz, saying it is "DEFINITELY NOT WELZ!" would seem to be a completely unsupportable assertion, at least without a solid ID as to the source that actually did make it. There are likely many companies we could reasonably rule out as the source of the examples, Welz would not seem to be one of them.
    23. AnneLanders AnneLanders, 6 years ago
      OH FOR HEAVENS SAKE....
      It's beautiful Peggy...have you posted others or did you say do you have other shapes or sizes....
      This is such a beautiful decor, you were very lucky to find/win whatever :)
    24. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hi Anne, I'm pleased you like this thorn vase. Here is a link to my only other thorns.

      http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/167299-welz-spatter-glass-thorn-vases
    25. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you, welzebub, logical comment as ever!
    26. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hi Alfredo, you once posted a piece and ended with the words, "I'm not taking comments from people who haven't handled the glass". Well when it comes to Welz Victorian/Cottage glass I have handled the glass. The picture I've added to this post shows my Welz Victorian/Cottage glass collection......

      The link I posted above, for Anne, shows Welz definitely made thorn vases. The Spatter Thorn Vases share characteristics with the Frog's Legs Thorn Vase. Still not proof that Welz made the Frog's Legs Thorn Vase but in my opinion quite likely.
    27. inky inky, 6 years ago
      Oh!! Wow!!! A collection to behold...they all look absolutely wonderful together...thanks for sharing it with us....:-))
    28. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you, inky, I really do appreciate your comment, particularly as I feel I've been stung into posting it at all!
    29. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thanks for the loves, petey, Vintagefran, aura, Alfredo, AnneLanders, inky, Lise and welzebub.
    30. welzebub, 6 years ago
      Nice wall of glass there Peggy!! It would appear you have plenty to "handle". :-)
    31. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hmm Craig....you could be right, but whether it counts we shall never know :)

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