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quatrefoil goblet with the coat of arms of the ezra p prentice family

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    Posted 9 years ago

    (676 items)

    any ideas on this historism piece?
    Underneath the coat of arms stands "droit et avant".... right and before...
    even in amazing good condition it is not a replica...look at the the way the top rim is cut and polished
    anyway i'm not a specialist on items like these...
    czech i guess?

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    1. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      I just found this so far:
    2. SEAN68 SEAN68, 9 years ago
    3. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      "droit et avant".... should mean "Upright and Forward" or "Straight Ahead!..." not waht i thought first...

      as far as this heraldic page says this coat of arms belongs to or has a reference to Ezra P. Prentice which might be important.
      mr prentice has been a wealthy and influential american. Never heard of him before...

      the point is the more i try to find out the less closer i get it seems... gottverdammich
    4. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 9 years ago
      Beautiful & fascinating puzzle. Going to stay tuned in for the results.
    5. PrenticeNet PrenticeNet, 9 years ago
      This is a wonderful item! The Ezra P. Prentice who acquired the coat of arms depicted here lived from 1797-1876, so if this is really a "late 1800s to early 1900s" piece, it's not his but possibly one of his descendants? I'll go out on a limb here and point out that Ezra's grandson (also named Ezra Parmalee Prentice), married Alta Rockefeller (dau. of John D. Rockefeller) in 1901. I'd like to think that it's possible this was a wedding gift? Realistically, this was a very large and wealthy family and it could have been owned by many of the descendants in that time frame. Would be great to hear from anyone with more details!
    6. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      Lobmeyr glass it might be...
    7. PrenticeNet PrenticeNet, 9 years ago
      Could contact them to see if they have records of doing custom stemware for Prentices or Rockefellers in the early 1900s?
    8. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 9 years ago
      WOW, PrenticeNet, you came up with a treasure trove! Great that you had that accurate info. I agree that it was probably a wedding gift, but that indicates a set. I really wanted this solved think you did it. Keep in touch with us!
    9. vetraio50 vetraio50, 9 years ago
      The term used for this type of glass is 'Lobmeyr Quatrefoil'.

    10. vetraio50 vetraio50, 9 years ago
      On the net is a set of Lobmeyr Quatrfoil glasses and decanter exhibited in 1872.

    11. vetraio50 vetraio50, 9 years ago
      Perhaps other factories supplied Quatrefoil glasses .... Moser?

      You might contact them too.
    12. vetraio50 vetraio50, 9 years ago
      Is the coat of arms on all four lobes or is it only on one?
      Are the other lobes gilded and enamel flowers?
    13. antiquerose antiquerose, 9 years ago
      Love it !!
    14. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      Yes indeed, the other lobes show gilded and enamel flowers...
      I will try to contact lobmeyr later on today...
    15. surfdub66 surfdub66, 9 years ago
      A beautiful glass !! ;-)
    16. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      Moser did Quatrefoil glasses as well it seems...
    17. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      And the winner is......Moser Quatrefoil
    18. Ivonne Ivonne, 9 years ago
      I've read the comments like detective story!Very interesting!
    19. solver solver, 9 years ago
      GTMOOM, magnificent!

      Based on everyone's expertise (since I know nothing about glass), here are VERY similar goblets with the ruby-colored panels, shown on Devonia Antiques. Look at all the photos since the color is not apparent on first photo.

      You might want to contact Moser in the U.S. or Czech Republic and inquire if they have access to archival materials.
      Czech Republic:
    20. PrenticeNet PrenticeNet, 9 years ago
      I hate to put a damper on things, but I contacted Moser to ask about archival records. I included a link to this page for context. Here is what I received from Marcela at MOSER, a.s. ..
      I would like to inform you that the glass on the pictures was not made in Moser glassworks. Moser never used this type of pattern.
      We are not sure where this glass was made because this type of glass produced a lot of glassworks during one period. It could be product of any glassworks in Europe.
      SO .. apparently this isn't a Moser goblet? Any other ideas?
    21. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      At the facebook art glass collectors group i was just told it might be "meyr's neffe"...
    22. solver solver, 9 years ago
      PrenticeNet, this should not be a "damper" to GTMOOM since the crest provides a provenance. Bravo and thank you for contacting Moser and obtaining a definitive answer. Regardless of my total lack of knowledge about glass, I found this post interesting because of the heraldry. The similar goblets I pointed to lacked any reference to documented evidence and as we know, just their opinion.

      I pursued your information and logical speculation and found a high-end New York retailer, operating from at least 1875, who imported European china and glass. I have not had time to assimilate my research but will do so and post later. If I remember correctly, they advertised the names of the European companies from whom they imported (I think about five), which might give a clue. I haven't disregarded the fact that Ezra Parmalee and Alma Rockefeller Prentice, or their families and friends, had the means to jaunt to Europe and special order them. ;-)

      GTMOOM, glad to see you are still on your quest.
    23. solver solver, 9 years ago
      N.B. to PrenticeNet: I had a question about the coat of arms and you are one of the Prentice family experts --- I enjoyed reading your website.

      From what I can see on the coat of arms in the second photo, it does not appear to me that there is a fleur-de-lis between the two crescents in the top field of the shield. Or, is it a stylized fleur-de-lis [that is already a stylized flower], another symbol, or that I cannot see it correctly in the photo?
    24. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 9 years ago
      Regardless of the background, this is one hell of a great piece of glass art work!!!!
    25. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      I'll try to take better pics tomorrow in the daylight and I'll try to get a propper closeup of the coat of arms.I've just tried to do but the all has been too flurry...
      It would be certainly a great help to try to find the maker of this goblet to know the names of the European companies from whom they imported...
    26. PrenticeNet PrenticeNet, 9 years ago
      @solver .. if you're referring to the symbol between the crescents, yeah, I'm not sure I'd have called that a fleur-de-lis myself, but that's the official definition of the arms. You can see in the first three images on that page it's a little different in each.

      Will be interesting to hear if you get more info about the New York retailer!
    27. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 9 years ago
      I just know that I am IMPRESSED every time it comes up! Beautiful craftsmanship!
    28. getthatmonkeyoutofme getthatmonkeyoutofme, 9 years ago
      As promised I've changed the second pic with a closeup of the coat of arms...
    29. solver solver, 9 years ago
      GTMOOM: Perfect photo, thanks.

      PrenticeNet: You just pointed out a critical element of the glass decoration that I did not see, thank you. I had focused on the original second photo and failed to see that each of the panels in the third photo is different.

      1. A disappointing result from pursuing the retailer, Wilhelm & Graef, New York, that is no longer in business:

      a. The May 22, 1884, advertisement I had glanced at only names the manufacturers for china, not glass, of which three are in England and the latter in Germany: "Mintons, Royal Worchester, Derby Crown, Royal Dresden, and others for china ware." It continues "Imported Crystal Glass Sets of 60 Pieces, ...."
      Top of left column 1, "The Independent," Vol. 1, May 22, 1884, courtesy Google books:

      b. March 20, 1919: "Henry Theodore Wilhelm, one of the oldest retail merchants in the china and glass business in this country ... During his heyday Mr. Wilhelm was regarded as one of the finest judges of china and glassware in this country, and during his career he made twenty-three tips to Europe, visiting ENGLAND, FRANCE, GERMANY AND ITALY in search of goods. He was never satisfied---he always wanted something out of the ordinary---and in the course of his trips visited out-of-the way places not frequented by the average buyer."
      "The Pottery Glass and Brass Salesman,” Volume No. 7, courtesy Google books:

      c. December 18, 1878: "A SPECIALTY OF THE FIRM IS THE ORNAMENTATION OF GLASSWARE---clarets, pitchers, goblets, bowls, etc.---with incisions of figures, grasses, flowers and ferns, executed with life-like fidelity and rare artistic skill. It is understood that for this purpose, Messrs. Wilhelm & Graef have brought over an artist from Europe, who is solely employed by them and whose name they will not even disclose."
      "The Christian Union," New York City, Vol. 18 No 25, courtesy Google books:

      d. Henry T. Wilhelm, New York, retailed china and glass. Around 1875 he partnered with Frederick W. Graef, operating as Wilhelm & Graef. They later had financial difficulties and subsequently (I think around 1900 but did not pursue) Wilhelm partnered with Sandor Decsenyi, operating as Wilhelm & Decsenyi.

      “1911: “Wilhelm & Decsenyi (Late Wilhelm & Graef) FINE TABLE CHINA and TABLE GLASS Decorated to order at short notice. INITIALS, MONOGRAMS. CRESTS and COATS- OF-ARMS a Specialty. Flat Gold, Raised …”
      “1911 New York Blue Book,” page 792. This Google book is not in the public domain and only shows a snippet view:

      e. 1915: Wilhelm & Decsenyi exhibited “ornamental glass” at the Panama-Pacific International Exposition in San Francisco.
      “Official Catalogue of Exhibitors Panama-Pacific International Exposition, San Francisco, California 1915,” courtesy Google books:

      2. The mystery fleur-de-lis.

      I cannot clearly see the three other panels shown on photo 3, only that they are very different, as you pointed out. It seems possible they are simply decorative. I am far from a learned person in the field of heraldry but IMO they do not represent cadency.

      The stylized fleur-de-lis remains a mystery to me or it is just that---stylized by the glass artist. I am unable to identify the symbol as represented in the second photo. The only stylized heraldic fleur-de-lis I found was that for the coat of arms of Turku, Finland, which would not relate to the Ezra Parmalee Prentice family (based only on my cursory reading about the descendants).

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