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Military Buttons144 of 194silver the size of a quarter with two XX on it  ONLYMystery button
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    Posted 7 years ago

    (194 items)

    Dusted off my detector & hit the hills Sunday. After finding a piece of cane boiling cauldron & a square hand made nail, I got a solid hit that promised maybe gold. Couldn't dig because of hard ground & no pick. I got so excited that I hurried home, had supper & forgot about it until Thursday(today).
    Front marked with a crown and what I said on the caption except a large 25 (for regiment). Back is marked CHARLES JENNENS & LONDON.
    Tried researching & get dates of 1800-32/1832-1912. Another site gives 1805-15. Can anybody give me accurate dating (Scott)? No plume on back.
    St. Maarten/St. Martin has only been held briefly by the Limeys in the past so it caught me off guard.

    Unsolved Mystery

    Help us close this case. Add your knowledge below.

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    1. fhrjr2 fhrjr2, 7 years ago
      Amazing condition for a dig find, I wish they were all like that.
    2. scottvez scottvez, 7 years ago
      Two piece construction would make me think late 19th/ early 20th century.

    3. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Scott, it is 1 pc, heavy & solid. I'm also wondering what it is plated with as it popped out of the ground shiny. By weight, I think it might be solid brass & plated.
    4. scottvez scottvez, 7 years ago
      I must be seeing things-- thought that I saw a rim edge going all around it!

    5. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Nope, scott.
    6. scottvez scottvez, 7 years ago
      That must be a substantive button by weight!

    7. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Don't know what that was all about but deleting as I don't want blood stains on my poste.
    8. fhrjr2 fhrjr2, 7 years ago
      scott - I thought I could see a rim also. Then when I blew it up I could see it was a shadow I was seeing. This is really in great condition. I need a dig like this. Although I need to get the wife a new shovel first. No sense both of us getting tired and she can dig faster with a new shovel.
    9. scottvez scottvez, 7 years ago
      Thanks fhrjr2!

      I should ignore but the ignorance can get a little annoying.

      Sorry again, buss-- look on the bright side, the chatter does keep your post at the top.

    10. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Done some research & put a request into what I hope is the right reg. muse'e. Seems they are a Scottish reg. formed in the mid 1600's & named the 25th in 1806. They were employed as "marine infantry" during the Napoleonic Wars & I found where they were in Martinique in 1809. St.Maarten would be a logical stop following the trade winds up to the Gulf Stream. Can this be that old & in that good of condition? It was on the leeward side of "The Rock". Worth going back for even if not gold. Guess I have to go back & look some more.
    11. fhrjr2 fhrjr2, 7 years ago
      I found the below regarding the markings on your button. Presumably trouser button.

      Jennens & Co. London. Maker of military and uniform buttons, early 1800’s to 1924. Backmarks are approximately:

      Jennens, Charles. Early 1800’s to about 1825.

      Jennens & Co. c. l820’s-1912.

      Jennens & Co. Ltd. c. 1912-1924. The firm amalgamated with Gaunt & Son in 1924.
    12. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      fhr, I like your practical approach & attitude. I'm still trying to get over being called a "guest". Guess we all are when I think about it!
      By the way, the back ring is mounted via a deep rectangular slot that may have been secured by crimping the sides. Ring is brass. Button was in hard soil/clay that I had to use a pick on.
    13. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      fhr, your search fairly matches mine. So with "Charles" used, we can guess 1800-1825 or 1832. So some marine lost one of his fly buttons while peeing around this sugar cane factory in possibly 1809. I was searching on some hillside land across the hwy. from the entrance to the new "LUCAS BRIDGE". Ruins from a cane factory & button found next to another building slightly higher up. Maybe the office or a house.
    14. fhrjr2 fhrjr2, 7 years ago
      I think you can be safe with the dates being pre 1825. I picked up my data off a badge & button makers marks site. I
    15. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      I'm still stunned over the condition being on an island. Even a lot of the shiny plating. Did they have plating in 1809? More research! Just when I was ready to lay this down!
    16. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Electro-plating hadn't been invented then. So what is this shiny surface? A "wash"?
    17. walksoftly walksoftly, 7 years ago
      Nice find!
      Are you going back to look for more.
      Did I miss some excitement here, how did you become a guest?
    18. kerry10456 kerry10456, 7 years ago
      Evening Lucas, I have some older uniform buttons with the same markings on the back, but different faces. They were posted a couple years ago and someone have made mention of them being 1820's-1840 vintage. Mine are brass . Don't know if this helps or just puts another question to mind.
    19. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Kerry, I don't know if these are solid brass. Under the shiny areas, it looks more greyish but don't want to hit it with a file until I hear from the regimental museum. I'm finding it strange that the markings on the back indicate early 1800's but the shiny part seems strange as it would be before plating was invented. At 1st, I thought it was a school kids button as they wear uniforms here. Mystery remains until the jury comes in.
    20. pops52 pops52, 7 years ago
      It's gilt, gilding has been around a long time. Plating is a process that produces similar effects to gilding. Very nice find.

    21. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Thanks pops. That had me baffled a bit. I'll look up the process now. There is a wider space before the "ERS", but it is actually BORDERERS I've found out. Have found out that they weren't in the Amer. revolution, War of 1812 or at Waterloo. Maybe they spent their careers lying on beaches in the tropics. <;)
    22. Zowie Zowie, 7 years ago
      I found a old army button in my back yard once years ago I think I still have it. Apparently it was the towns first tip, it's the same place my partner found the turtle about 3 feet down, now that I can't beleive is all intact & came as clean as if it was made yesterday if I hadn't seen it I would not of beleived it. By the way do you collect buttons. Also
    23. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Zowie, I don't collect buttons & really never got into detecting but this is becoming very interesting seeing no reason for a Brit. button on our island. Nothing O/L about a battle to take Ft. Louis above Marigot so went over today & climbed(ugh) to the fort to read the plaques. Seems a small squadron under HMS Wanderer(20 guns) decided to attack the ft. with 200 sailors & marines/"infantry marine" and didn't fare very well. On the 14 of July 1808 they lost 28 killed & wounded(Capt. killed) & 140 taken prisoner. Prisoners were jailed & then exchanged for french prisoners in Anguilla. Button found less than 1 1/2 miles away. Things are piecing together & waiting for reply to inquiry to 25th Reg. museum. Going now to scan the area some more.
    24. Zowie Zowie, 7 years ago
      Everything is where it is for a reason wether it's to learn now or for someone else to find later & learn then whatever the reason things alwayas happen for a reason. I would love a metal detector even if it is just to kill time with. Still have heaps of new posts. to do
    25. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Update: Received info from the 25's regimental museum & they or a part, were in our area of the "Wayward" Islands during that period. That info does not mention the assault on the French fort. Could be the Brits don't like to make notes on battles they lost. Now I have a minor political skirmish between the curator of the Fr. muse'e & the head of the dutch "Hysterical" society. I'm friends with & worked with both sides for yrs.. I plan to give it to the Fr. muse'e but since I found it on the dutch side(only 50 meters from the frontier), the dutch want it. A bloody button! I laugh about the possible "War of the Button" but I live about 400 mtre from the frontier & don't want to have to go thru a check-point to go to work. Do wish I had never mentioned it to Sir Jay though. Life is 1 sand box after another!
    26. walksoftly walksoftly, 7 years ago
      Another fine mess you got yourself into:-)
    27. walksoftly walksoftly, 7 years ago
      Why not let them settle it over a coin toss or a button toss, then you're not caught in the middle!
    28. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Actually Walks, it isn't as simple as it appears. Doubt the button will trigger things, but the Fr. have been looking for a reason to start doing a frontier search. A treaty was made in 1648 for an open border & is still valid. We have no sales tax on either side but things since the formation of the EU, things on the dutch side are cheaper. The French have been getting upset for many yrs about "their" people buying on the dutch side & bringing it thru an open border to the Fr. side. When the dutch side gained autonomy some yrs ago, the Fr. made moves toward a border check but legally couldn't. Of course, when you turn things over to West Indians, they just steal everything, which is what the dutch were waiting on to take control again. Right now, we have no gov't.. Kind of like the U.S..Just like ObamaCare. Like you, we wait to hear.
      We are in a unique situation & I have certainly taken advantage of it. We can buy tobacco, liquor etc. dirt cheap on the dutch side, drive over the frontier & mail or ship from the Fr. side, which is a Province de France & EU & no duty. Fascinating situation, but the Fr. don't like it & can't figure out a way to stop it. I've done it & have friends now who make big money doing it. They just don't know how to stop it! In actuality, something like that button could give the excuse to have border checks. Sounds absurd, but could be what they are searching for. I have to give it to the Fr.!
    29. Vintagefran Vintagefran, 7 years ago
      Fantastic find Blunderbuss, I've often fancied metal detecting.
      Amazing research with it too and history lesson:)
      I think its fascinating you were able to trace the regiment and found out all the history with it.
      I wondered if mine was made of steel or, gun metal maybe, its not coated like this one. And i expect it'll be harder to trace, being in the UK.
    30. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Of course mine was marked with the name & # of the regiment. I found some site for military museums, contacted them with pic & they connected me with the 25's regimental museum. Sorry, but I deleted the 1st contacts info. You are the one with the Jennens button I believe. You might send a request with pic to my 2nd contact & they will probably put you on the right track or know. Address is: Bonne chance.

      Meanwhile, here is an update on my ex-button. My search showed no Brit. occupation of dutch-side St. Maarten. When I donated the button to the musee, the curator & long time friend, gave me information showing that the Brits actually were here twice. 1801-03 (too early) & 1811-16 (possibility). The musee curator is doing more research & said she will keep me updated & will pass along. She made off like a bandit if these are worth all that money. $2.85!!!
    31. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 7 years ago
      Sorry, I noticed that I put 2 periods after the "uk" in that address I gave you. Only 1 period.
    32. lovedecanters lovedecanters, 5 years ago
      The 25th of Foot didn't become the Kings Own Borderers until 1805 and became the Kings Own Scottish Borderers in 1887. So there is a definite time slot. Charles Jennens buttons post 1860 had a fleur de lys on them, and yours does not. To gold plate a button before electricity you would paint it with gold powder in glue and put it in a furnace. The glue burns off and the gold fuses to the surface of the bronze button. The crown over the 25 does not have a lion on top, so it is not Queen Victoria's crown. Your button is firmly in the time 1805 to 1837. From what I can see of the number and script it also looks the right time period to me.
    33. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Thanks lovedecanters for the backup info.. Thru the regimental museum, I was informed that the 25th was involved in an unsuccessful attack on Martinique, then came up to English Harbour in Antigua & then to St. Maarten. This button was probably lost during that 1811-1816 stay here. As coincidences go, that battle to take Martinique took place just below the hospital where I went thru open heart surgery 5 yrs. 28 days, 6 hrs & 46 min. ago. (Not that I took much note of the date!) LOL!!
      As a side note: After the French-Dutch Battle of the Button died down, I gave it to the Dutch musee'.
    34. fhrjr2 fhrjr2, 5 years ago
      Thank God for zippers.
    35. blunderbuss2 blunderbuss2, 5 years ago
      Well fhr, a few times when I was young (just after the dinosaurs), I probably used his name in vain. LOL!

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