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Loetz Martele Rhinoceros - Debate continues...

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Bohemian Art Glass2878 of 6309Help! Can anybody of you identify this vase?Heckert Crocus
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    Posted 5 years ago

    philmac51
    (196 items)

    So I'm not accepting my 'Clara' becoming a non-Loetz animal just yet.
    Before I start let me just say a massive THANK YOU! to OZMARTY for providing much of the evidence that would suggest that Clara is indeed a product of Loetz.

    Image 1 : This shows an image taken from Truit II page 15, which shows a series of rather bizarre decanter sets balanced precariously on glass animals. This page is from a Karl Palda Glassworks catalogue from the mid 30s. As you can see by comparing image 12124 (if you can make it out) with my Clara there is a distinct similarity - let's just say it - "she's the same beast."

    This was the curved ball that just started to roll and roll!!

    Image 2 : Shot without the metal fittings that can be seen more clearly on my earlier post (http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/183471-loetz-martele-rhinoceros)

    Image 3 : Now this is where things get interesting. Marty provided me firstly with a Loetz Commission record from Cantz (shown at the top), Com. 2192 - Karl Palda, Haida. This number apparently indicates a 1930's date, I don't think we can be absolutely specific about the year.
    Below this are two images, which I am using to justify my case in support of Clara being a product of Loetz and not of Palda. As you can see, I have enlarged the image of a seal which is shown in image 1 (bottom left corner - no. 12186). The image below this is an image from P.260 of Cantz, prod nr. 4824/I. The similarity is striking.

    As fellow collectors here will freely admit, when you have an object 'in-hand' you can end up on a long quest to establish many facts about it and during that journey discover some extraordinary surprises along the way and all with the help of other passionate collectors whose input here and on my previous post I gratefully acknowledge - Special thanks again to Marty.

    So, in summary, in my opinion, and I'm something of a novice at this, but I am prepared to say that, although there may not exist a Cantz illustration of a Loetz Rhino it does not mean that they did not produce it on commission for Karl Palda, a company not producing, as far as I know, blown art glass. Indeed why would they reproduce elephants, rhinos and seals etc. when they could be cost effectively provided by Loetz, a company already producing such products. I would also like to add that I think the reason why we see more Loetz elephants than we do other animals, putting aside our general human affinity with such creatures, is simply that they were more popular, therefore likely more were sold and more produced and therefore more have survived the ravages of time. As seen in the Palda cataloge page (ignoring the bird decanters) they make up 60% of the 'mammals'.

    So there you have it, I present my case.
    I believe my Rhino (Clara) to be a product of Loetz.
    All that agree say: I DO!
    I'll accept any challenges to the contrary....

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    Comments

    1. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      Thank you LISA!
    2. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      ...Although we should accept that probably none of the Palda animals have any surface iridescence and are in all likelihood clear coloured martele glass.
    3. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      Yes it is. Also one has to consider this; as Loetz manufactured and supplied commissioned pieces for other companies and those companies, and there is clear evidence of this, manufactured or were supplied with decorative metal work to which were then applied to said piece and then retailed does not make that piece any less Loetz. The same can be said for retailers like Max Emanuel, who ordered some very specific designs and decor forms of glass products to be sold through their London shop - again clearly does not make these pieces any less Loetz. As far as I can see in the case of these Palda animals; Loetz is the manufacturer and supplier, Karl Palda the retailer.
    4. welzebub, 5 years ago
      "As far as I can see in the case of these Palda animals; Loetz is the manufacturer and supplier, Karl Palda the retailer."

      Technically, Palda would have been a refiner, and wholesaler seller whose customers were retailers. A refiner would be defined as a company that made alterations to pieces they ordered from a "source" and modified them in some manner. In this case it could be the addition of metal and other accessories to go with the piece. In other cases it could be cutting, enameling, engraving etc.

      In the case of Max Emanuel who ordered from Loetz, they were a retailer who sold product as ordered and received.

      It is a minor point, but important I think.
    5. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      That's great Craig, I knew I could rely on you for clarification - Thank you!
      Can I assume it is a YES from you then?
    6. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      Or should I say an "I DO"
    7. welzebub, 5 years ago
      I would lean towards a yes on this. The fact that there is evidence that Palda bought blanks of sorts from Loetz would support that.

      The additional question that would beg to be asked and answered is:

      "If not produced by Loetz for Palda, then who else would be the logical house to have done it".
    8. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      Precisely....who else??
    9. philmac51 philmac51, 4 years ago
      Thank you Alfredo - I really appreciate that. Looking forward to hearing back from you. Seems Loetz.com have now removed it from their site for some reason.
    10. kivatinitz kivatinitz, 4 years ago
      very interesting post
    11. philmac51 philmac51, 4 years ago
      Thank you - and it's not over just yet - hopefully Al will make some progress on the search for this particular 'Loetz' animal - I must give him a little nudge!!
    12. courtenayantiques courtenayantiques, 2 years ago
      great post! Is the quest for confirmation on Loetz still going on?
    13. philmac51 philmac51, 2 years ago
      Hi Courtenay
      It was interesting that when this thread of just two posts was published, Loetz.com did have this item on their site, it was removed for some reason but was later added again. So I would assume that the experts do believe that it and others in the Palda catalogue are indeed Loetz.
      I don't know if you saw the original post, but it is worth seeing in context with this one:
      https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/183471-loetz-martele-rhinoceros
    14. Vynil33rpm Vynil33rpm, 2 years ago
      Yes definitely Mid production
    15. philmac51 philmac51, 2 years ago
      What is really interesting beyond this is a great post by Ian Brighton a couple of years ago:
      https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/199709-palda-decanter-set
      He actually posted one of these complete Palda sets with the bird and glasses.
      It's easy to see items like the rhinos, seals, elephants, bears etc could have been made by Loetz, but that the bird (duck) decanters could possibly have been made by another supplier to Palda??
    16. Parkerhouse Parkerhouse, 2 years ago
      Hi, it's nice to see that some of these older threads continue to live on. I always learn so much from them.

      I have a couple of questions regarding Karl/Karel Palda. I see that welzebub, 3 years ago said:
      "As far as I can see in the case of these Palda animals; Loetz is the manufacturer and supplier, Karl Palda the retailer." Since this is in quotes, I am not sure who is being quoted, but my question is can you please tell me where it is documented that Karl Palda was a retailer?

      welzebub goes on to say : (my quotes this time)
      "Technically, Palda would have been a refiner, and wholesaler seller whose customers were retailers. A refiner would be defined as a company that made alterations to pieces they ordered from a "source" and modified them in some manner. In this case it could be the addition of metal and other accessories to go with the piece. In other cases it could be cutting, enameling, engraving etc. "

      I am interested in learning more about Karel Palda, Novy Bor who had a catalog with perfume bottles and atomizers. Are these the same person (Karel/Karl)? I have been assuming they are, but I have learned in the glass world assumptions are usually passed on as fact, which always gets me into trouble. Yes, Craig, it is me the Atomizer Queen. :)

      So IF Karl Palda was not a glass maker, who made the perfume bottles in the catalogs? There is a distinct difference in the glass and designs called Karel Palda from the 1930s to the clear glass with flashing and geometric designs from the 1950s that are labeled Karl Palda on most US sites. Father/Son? Same?

      Anyone? where can I find more history on the K Palda/s (not to be confused with Leopold Palda). Catalog pages? Websites? Links? Anything is appreciated.

      Philmac, sorry to tag onto "Clara"'s thread. She is a lovely beast. :) Give her an apple for me.
    17. welzebub, 2 years ago
      To the best of my knowledge, Palda was a refiner and wholesaler. As far as sources for their glass, it is likely a fairly lengthy list. Truitt I & II show Palda catalog pages and glass, but do not really discuss much of the history of the company. They state that it was founded in 1888 in Haida (Novy Bor), and they also state that it appears that they used, in many cases, the same suppliers as Hosch, as there are duplicate offerings in the Hosch and Palda catalogs. Overall info on the history of the company is not easily located.... At least that is my experience with it..... Although admittedly, it is not a real focus of my research.......
    18. Parkerhouse Parkerhouse, 2 years ago
      Thanks for the reply and the information, Craig. I appreciate your taking the time.
      Judy
    19. welzebub, 2 years ago
      My pleasure. Always glad to help when I can.

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