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Bohemian Vase.....Victorian Period

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Bluebonnet's loves12 of 34Loetz Cytisus in different forms and colorsFor my CW glass friends
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    Posted 6 years ago

    (787 items)

    Another pink and white vase.....this time without mica inclusions but with green rigaree in a style not uncommon on Welz vases. You can see that the crimping tool used to create the green rigaree has left a pattern on the rigaree. The small trophy vase, in the Welz décor known as blue/green honeycomb, bears exactly the same marks on its rigaree.

    Furthermore the rim discloses four layers of glass and the stripes/lines continue down to meet under the base just as I observed on the previous two vases. Thus I think that these three vases have the same maker and in all likelihood that maker is Welz.

    If you disagree I'm happy to listen.

    Height 28 cm./11 inches


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    1. SEAN68 SEAN68, 6 years ago
      very very beautiful!!
    2. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you, SEAN, I like that you see what I see :)
    3. SEAN68 SEAN68, 6 years ago
      your very welcome sklo!!
    4. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you, nutsabotas, I'm happy you like it too.
    5. Ivonne Ivonne, 6 years ago
      So sweet,I'd see them in a confectioner's window :-)
    6. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Yes, Ivonne, pink candy, green marzipan and icing :)
    7. mikelv85 mikelv85, 6 years ago
      You are definitely acquiring some wonderful eye candy Sklo...these are lovely :)
    8. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you so much, mikelv, and with the added bonus that all three are in perfect condition :)
    9. racer4four racer4four, 6 years ago
      Wow. This tall one has just blown me away. How gorgeous is it! And as a trio just spectacular.
      Great leads to the conclusion, and congratulations.
    10. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thanks a lot, Karen, I'm really pleased you like they are so far from your own core interest in Art Glass.
    11. Hedgewalker Hedgewalker, 6 years ago
      Wow !

    12. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you, Hedgewalker, Brevity is good!
    13. antiquerose antiquerose, 6 years ago
      Both are JUST Darling !!!
    14. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hi, antiquerose, what a perfect description for them, thank you :)
    15. Efesgirl Efesgirl, 6 years ago
      I'm not a "pink" sort of a person, but that pink and green vase is GORGEOUS. I have to agree and say that yes, they do look like glass candy. :-)
    16. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hi, Efesgirl, I'm not a "pink" sort of person either, but bought them thinking they might prove to be Welz. I do thank you for a lovely comment :)
    17. glassiegirl glassiegirl, 6 years ago
      Sklo, of the three shape you posted in the pink/ opalescent, in fairness, can you provide any "welz" documentation? No, of course not. It is known glasshuttes produced same or similar glassware. Comparing the same applied foot or handle is not an accurate method of research, and not every example of cased glass with a Spatter decor is produced by one glasshouse. I would agree your examples are Bohemian, but that is as far as it goes. With out documentation or a solid reference from a museum, it is unknown.

      Why do you think Loetz is what it is today? because there is documentation that does exist and of all the experts on Loetz, they do not use methods of comparing glass by an applied foot or decor to make it Loetz. If you take the time to research, there is plenty of evidence to show in the many eras of Bohemian glass, there is more than one glasshouse who produced same or similar glass.

      You can delete my comment, as I know you will. I would not tell you, Sklo if I did not believe it was crucial to speak up. If I could prove the attribution right or wrong, I would. How can anyone know for sure who made what when there is no solid documentation? Instead, certain methods are used that simply do not work when it is known more than one glasshouse were producing the same thing.

      My reference for giving you advice comes from Deb Truitt which is who I asked on the methods of Welz research, and she explained it's best to call it Bohemian until there is further documentation when it is known more than one glasshouse was producing the same or similar.
    18. welzebub, 6 years ago
      Personally, I hope that Peggy does not delete your comment.

      There is, in fact, a huge abundance of accepted Bohemian glass research that is not based on factory documentation or museum attributions, but on solid and supportable empirical research. I have also wondered that without documentation, how did museum curraators and researchers attribute the glass? Just because a few users in this forum seem to feel it does not work, that does not invalidate a research technique which has been used for hundreds of years in all types of fields of study.

      In reference to Welz, the only line of glass that it appears it does not work for, at least in your opinion it would seem, solid empirical research regarding Welz production was in fact proven to be quite accurate with the discovery of Welz production literature in the very end of 2014. That literature showed examples of shapes and décors which had been previously identified years earlier as Welz production, without any documentation whatsoever being available. How in the world could that happen if your point of view is so accurate, and the technique is so error ridden and unreliable?? Maybe the answer to that is found in the methods with which it is applied, and who is doing it.

      Bohemian companies made similar glass, not identical glass.... so it is possible to tell at least some of it apart if one concentrates and studies all the details.

      My own personal communications with Deb Truitt indicated that she has a real interest in supportable robust research, and is far from believing we should just call it all Bohemian and move on.

      If you believe empirical research is useless as a tool for research, I am extremely curious why you do not jump in with your "opinion" regarding Rückl research and posts in this forum and voice the same level of "concern"?? It would appear you approve of those. It would seem the opinion, at least for the last 3+ years, is only relative to items being described as potentially by Welz. I have continued to wonder...... Why is that?

      Even has a section of unknown Loetz decors. They also have unknown DEK's. I am curious as to how in the world we can know they are unknown decors by Loetz if we can not identify them as Loetz decors. Empirical research and comparative analysis? Shapes, ground colors etc?? That couldn't be.... according to you it does not work. :-)

      It would simply appear that some think empirical research works and others do not. I am assuming you fall in the latter, and not the former group.
    19. welzebub, 6 years ago
      "My reference for giving you advice comes from Deb Truitt which is who I asked on the methods of Welz research"

      I am curious why you inquired about "Welz research", and not Bohemian glass research overall?? :-)

      I would have to add that with your believing empirical research to not be a valid tool, it is likely a good thing you do not do glass research.
    20. glassiegirl glassiegirl, 6 years ago
      Overall, your research has errors, Craig and at the end of the day, it's just Bohemian glass. Plain and simple. Can you prove Sklo's example in the pink and opalescent are Welz? No, because there is no proof. None.
    21. welzebub, 6 years ago
      Thanks Leah, I really appreciate your opinion..... :-)

      Well, I guess we should all just give up then because we have received the final answer. It appears it is a hopeless search to resolve unanswerable questions in a field where only factory documentation, a book written by of all things a researcher, or a museum attribution can help us.

      And here, with newly discovered factory production literature and all the other newly discovered Welz related documents I have uncovered, I thought I had quite a bit of it right.... :-)

      But "overall".... apparently not!! :-)
    22. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      @ glassiegirl I did state above "If you disagree I'm happy to listen" and so I have read your comment carefully. You however have not troubled to refute the factual observations I made over four separate posts. Neither have you made any attempt to discredit the visual evidence.

      It is disingenuous to ask for Welz documentation as you well know. Loetz is a case apart as there are reference books that can be bought, not to mention web sites.

      Don't lecture me on research. My husband started his career as research scientist, later moving into R&D for a major European conglomerate. He has patents to his name and from him I learned not to make wild statements. Unfortunately many people are not so fortunate.

      My daughter-in-law, a published, peer reviewed, statistician, said all research is empirical. Empirical meaning facts.....those facts can be mathematical formulae, weather data, drug trial results and yes, glass vases! Research compares, looks for patterns and sometimes draws conclusions. Research starts from wanting to know......

      You do not know that I will delete your comment. In fact I'm happy to let your comment says a lot about you.
    23. glassiegirl glassiegirl, 6 years ago
      Great, Sklo. I did not come here to prove my worth, but it is apparent you and Craig have the need to. With your methods of research of comparing the same applied foot or marks on applied rigaree does not prove anything when it is known other glasshouses were producing the same or similar wares.

      As Alfredo mentioned in another post, "You better start doing your own research, rather than depending on dubious attributions."
    24. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      @glassiegirl IF another glasshouse was producing an applied foot in the self same configuration you would would be posting a photo of it on CW to prove your point.

      This is my post after all, I was merely replying to your comment.

    25. IanBrighton IanBrighton, 6 years ago
      Great pieces. Jealous!
    26. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hi Ian, Just what I needed.....and you know I never believe you're jealous :)
    27. Michelleb007 Michelleb007, 6 years ago
      sklo, this vase is just stunning; I would be so proud to own it. Also, I was impressed with the very logical and well-thought out way you presented your observations about the vase, and why you attribute it to Welz. You obviously DO do your own research, and do it well. Thank you for yet another informative and well written post.
    28. Michelleb007 Michelleb007, 6 years ago the way, your photos keep getting better and better! Just lovely.
    29. welzebub, 6 years ago
      I agree with Ian, wonderful examples.
    30. glassiegirl glassiegirl, 6 years ago
      In regards, to the pink opalescent decor, there is a Harrach reference from Warren Galle's site which does display two examples that are being compared with examples from the PMCIII.

      Scroll down and look left from the page.
    31. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Hi Michelle, it's always good to hear from you and I do appreciate the encouragement :)
    32. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you too, Craig
    33. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      @ glassiegirl I have seen those. The writer says,"Similar examples are shown in PMC III plates 151 &152". Thus I still don't know what exactly is in the PMC. The second of the two examples in your link has rigaree of a type that's on the two Welz vases I posted as the intro to the three pink vases.

      I do consider that the stripes on my vases differ from those in your link. I do think that anyone handling these three vases would consider them to have come from the same maker. I did say that, in my opinion, the likely maker is Welz. Just an opinion, but an opinion from someone who has a hundred plus pieces of Victorian Welz. Perhaps it would have been better to have posted comment 31 at the outset.

    34. welzebub, 6 years ago
      Thanks for the link. That should help to make it clear what we are discussing here. :-)

      Although on his Harrach page, both of Warren's examples are described as:

      "Striped vase with applied rigaree; similar to designs in PMCIII, 151 & 152."

      If memory serves me correctly, those have also been on that page for a very long time that way.

      The cited examples from Passau are in different colors and completely different shapes, as are Warren's. The one (PMC III.151) with vertical stripes is a different pattern comprising the stripes and a completely different color. The other example (PMC III.152) is also completely different in color and the pattern in the glass is a cross hatched pattern on a clear ground.

      "Similar" is applied very loosely in that case. They seem to have a similar "aesthetic". Personally, I would never say that his pieces are Harrach based on those PMC images. But that is just me....

      Below is a link to a comparison of these vases, Warren's examples, and the Passau images he references.

      Are they similar? Kind of.... Would I attribute any of those vases as being the same houses based on those comparisons. Not on your life.... Maybe you would.

      Is it possible Warren's are Harrach? Sure. Based on those comparison it would be just as possible they are are actually Welz, or someone else for that matter.
    35. Collectomaniac Collectomaniac, 6 years ago
      The blue one is one of the nicest vases I've ever set eyes on. I really like it a lot.
    36. Mac63 Mac63, 6 years ago
      My 2 cents - great picture taking. Love the lighting.
    37. Michelleb007 Michelleb007, 6 years ago
      I want to say that I am quite sure that the author of this post knows all about the Passau Glass Museum...and is, as many people are, aware that there are books on bohemian glass published by the museum in 'bands' or volumes. They are sometimes known as PMC's (therefore, PMCIII refers to Passau Museum Catalog Band III) that each focus on various eras or styles of Bohemian glass. While I have quite a few, they are costly, and not very easy to get (I had to get mine from a German book site.) So, a lot of collectors don't own them, or own just a few volumes. They are useful, but not something that I think is required to be a serious glass collector. Just because she doesn't have instant access to 'PMCIII pages so and so..." that may or not pertain to her glass at all does not in anyway make her any less serious or knowledgeable about her glass, her observations, or her insights.
    38. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thank you, collectomaniac, you are right, it is one of Welz's prettiest décors.
    39. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thanks Mac63, your comment made me 'lighting' is the sun and unfortunately I can't switch it on at will :)
    40. welzebub, 6 years ago
      This is Peggy's post. She is actually more than competent to make her own decisions as to attributions. I have researched Welz for 8+ years almost exclusively. I do not feel the need to jump in immediately and contribute on posts that are as well laid out and thought through as this series of posts were. If more people actually studied glass the way she does, we would likely know more, and see fewer mistakes posted in this forum as "facts".

      Her approach is methodical, pays attention to small details, avoids broad reaching and unsupportable generalities, and most importantly focuses on both what can confirm, and also detract from an attribution. I believe many people could learn from her approach.

      It does not matter what I think, and attributions of any kind including Welz do not need my "stamp of approval". I contribute what I can when I can. If I have nothing to really add, I do not feel compelled to comment. My contributions to this discussion were to refute what I consider to be misleading information that was once again presented in this forum, and only seeming to occur on posts including Welz as a topic. I think the comments above by one of the forum users, show clearly that there is a personal component motivating some of the activity. It is unfortunate that people such as Peggy are subjected to it based on what type of glass they choose to post. Plain and simple, that was my only reason for commenting.

      Personally, I think that Peggy's line of reasoning speaks for itself.
    41. scottvez scottvez, 6 years ago
      Could the hypocrisy be any more evident!

      LOVE the glass peggy. Your research and "wanting to know" has produced some great postings on here!

    42. welzebub, 6 years ago
      My comment 41 is in response to a comment which has since been deleted. That comment indicated that I had not agreed with Peggy, so I responded to it. What I say in the comment applies to this post and others in this forum.
    43. Vintagefran Vintagefran, 6 years ago
      To echo Hedgewalker..WOW! They're absolutely stunning..whoever made them
    44. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Thanks, Fran, I think they are my favourites amongst the Victorian glass :)
    45. Rick55 Rick55, 6 years ago
      O.K. Peggy... On a lighter note... I've been away for a while and playing catch-up. I'm looking at your posts in order, and as far as your pink vases are concerned, each is better than the last! This one is hands down my favorite! The green against the pink... striking! Best of all, the smooth lines of the vase allows all that detail of the rigeree to really stand out and POP!!!
    46. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      Rick, I would agree with you totally.....and so nice of you to say so too!
    47. AmatoorPikr, 6 years ago
      Incredibly lovely juxtaposition of colors!!!
    48. sklo42 sklo42, 6 years ago
      A perceptive comment, AmatoorPikr, thank you!
    49. philmac51 philmac51, 5 years ago
      Phew.....! That's some post Peggy, just shows the passion that our obsessions generate and actually a great reason to be a part of this community of enthusiasts.
      Nice vase, by the way!
    50. sklo42 sklo42, 5 years ago
      Thank you, philmac, I'm pleased you like the vase.

      I was aware of the dismissive comment, on your Yellow Tango Glass Bowl post, which was aimed at me. Perhaps that was what brought this vase to your attention. I would say however, that in referencing only this one post to support her statement, she ignored two other posts which were an integral part of my explanation of how I arrived at my conclusion. There was also a fourth related post.

      In other words she chose to reference only 25% of the facts I presented. I know you will be familiar with the the expression 'being economical with the truth'.

      I chose not to put this on your post as it has nothing to do with your lovely yellow bowl, but it needs saying.
    51. courtenayantiques courtenayantiques, 5 years ago
      Love these pieces and your photos! I have a small trophy vase in yellow that was identified as Welz - I'll try and post a photo of it later today.
      Very interesting thread, some great information here - thanks for sharing!

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